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 Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander

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smdl
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:14 pm

Hi, folks.

I picked up a 2012 Stelvio NTX yesterday, and the bike has the full PC V/Autotune setup. I plan to remove all of that, return to stock, and load the Stelvio tune that Mark was kind enough to send me. However, before I pull all the PC crap out permanently, I would like to temporarily disable it while I try the new map, so I have the ability to switch back and forth. What I am wondering is, what is the best method of doing this? If I just disconnect power to the PC/Autotune, will the signals from the ECU just pass through? Or do I have to disconnect every point of connection, such as TPS, injectors, etc.?

I've never worked with a PC, and probably never will again, so sorry if this is a dumb question.

Thanks,
Shaun
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:28 pm

You'll need to disconnect the original injector leads from the PC, and the PC injectors leads from the injectors and reconnect the originals.

Clear as mud? Very Happy

Leave everything else as is.
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smdl
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:40 pm

beetle wrote:
You'll need to disconnect the original injector leads from the PC, and the PC injectors leads from the injectors and reconnect the originals.

Clear as mud? Very Happy

Leave everything else as is.

Muddy as ever!  Thanks, Mark!

By the way, I wonder if you might have a copy of the original map for the 2-Lambda Stelvio?  Mine was already modified by GuzziTech when I got it, and I would like to have the original one on hand.

Thanks,
Shaun
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:13 pm

Yep. I'll send it to you.


Last edited by beetle on Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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smdl
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:25 pm

Thanks -- I owe you.

Shaun
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ronbo10
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:55 am

Hi Smdl, I wonder if it wouldn't be worth a try to leave on the PC and autotune, but zero out the PC so it's neither putting nor pulling fuel, and with Beetle's map (which probably is significantly different from the GT map), you would still have an ECU that could better compensate for altitude than just the stock ECU. I mean, as long as you already have it. I might be off base here, but my understanding is that an ECU with a good map and PC/autotune should be better able to compensate for broad excursions in altitudes (e.g. crossing the Rockies) than the ECU alone.

I know that map/PCV/autotune is what GT offers as their ultimate in fueling, though I also know that many here at the Ghetto much prefer a well developed map sans the complication of the extra bits of kit. I'm just curios really, as I haven't heard of anyone using Beetle's maps with PC/autotune. Or am I overstating what (I understand) the advantages of PCV/autotune?

Beetle, Pete, what are your opinions on this idea? Has anyone tride PC with autotune and one of your maps?
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smdl
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:27 am

I seem to recall that Mark has discussed the potential for retaining the Autotune piece in one of the threads here. I would be interested in hearing thoughts on the subject. I think I would prefer the simplicity of just the standard ECU, but this is an interesting subject.

Also, I'm wondering if it makes sense to retain the wide-band sensors on this, and look at data-logging with it? There was a discussion about this on WG that was beyond my capacity for focus at that time, but it sounded interesting. Would appreciate any input -- I have an Android tablet, and would enjoy seeing what the engine is really doing.

Cheers,
Shaun
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:56 pm

I have thought about this. I do modify the pressure-air-temp tables for low and high altitude compensation, but one can never know how high some of you will get.

Theoretically, the AT set up with a proper map in the PC should be able to get the AFR within a bee's dick of your actual target AFR. I built a specific ECU map for this with a PC map designed for my target AFR and sent it to a chap who was thinking the same. That was quite a while ago and haven't heard back from him. I can only assume he is off riding with wild glee and his family are wondering where he is.

The other option is using a wideband controller to simulate a narrowband signal. You program the controller to output a narrowband signal but use your target AFR as the sweet spot. With the lambda activated, the ECU will trim to your target AFR and you should get map perfection. I'm doing this right now with my bike and I'm very happy with the results. The only downside is that the ECU trims are slow compared to the AT.

Shaun, I don't know whether you you can tap a 0-5V signal on the AT or PC to monitor AFR. I suppose I could check it out.
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smdl
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:33 pm

Mark you're a genius! The temperature here got up to 12C today, so it was a perfect day to spend in the garage getting to know the new-to-me Stelvio.

With Mark supplying the original Stelvio tune, as well has his optimized version, I was able to test the PC V with Autotune, stock map, and Mark's map. The PC V was okay, but smelled very rich at idle, and seemed a bit ho hum from a power and sweetness perspective. Not bad, though, particularly once I was able to compare against the others.

Next, I took the PC out of the mix, and switched to the stock map. That started up nicely, but was just horrible once the bike warmed up. Surging/hesitating at a steady 4K rpm, occasional cough at idle, much clutch-slipping needed getting away from a light, very abrupt on/off throttle transitions (on sandy roads!), and just generally unhappy. It would more or less do what I asked, but it felt tired, and, well, just unhappy. Hesitation, sluggishness, etc.

Finally, I dropped in Mark's map, and it was a revelation. No other way to put it. The bike just woke up, as soon as I started it. Felt so much more willing; smooth away from a stop, almost no clutch-slipping needed. I had to keep checking to make sure I didn't go over the speed limit (plus normal overage Smile ) as I was frequently finding myself higher than expected. Vibrations seemed less, too, as the mirrors seemed more clear. Overall, the bike just felt... happy; almost playful!

I still have some work to do, as the air box has an open lid and a K&N (new filter is on order). Good thing I know the previous owner (before he traded it in), so I was able to get all the original parts (exhaust, air box lid, etc.). Once I get the air filtering back to normal, I'll set CO, etc., but I really can't complain about how it works now. Truly day-and-night compared to the stock map, and noticeably better than the PC setup.

Mark, I'm very pleased, and will be sending a well-deserved donation your way. Hope it will help with the fuel, equipment and time investments.

Cheers,
Shaun
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smdl
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:35 pm

Steak, hope you don't mind a Stelvio owner posting on your GRiSO forum.  If you want to move this to the non-GRiSO thread, I'm more than happy with that.  

Thanks for the great forum.  I suppose I now need to get a GRiSO, too!  Laughing

Cheers,
Shaun
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smdl
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:46 pm

By the way, I forgot to mention the best part:  I was just making short 15-20 minutes test loops on each map, and expected to be done early so I could get started preparing my Eldo for the upcoming motorcycle show.  However, once I got Mark's map in there, it became so much fun that I just wanted to keep riding!  I ended up doing almost 200km, and had to make myself turn around to head back.  This is definitely the right bike to travel on, and was the right choice for me.   Not a GRiSO, you understand, but still pretty cool!  cheers

Shaun
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:50 pm

Non GRiSO guys are welcome here and some contribute greatly to the Forum (Paul, Ghezzi and some others as well...).
You're fine mang. Very Happy
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smdl
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:11 pm

Thumbs Up
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:16 pm

Once you get rid of that rock strainer K&N, and put the lid back on the airbox, it will go even better.

cheers
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smdl
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:46 pm

Can't wait! bounce
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:30 pm

smdl wrote:
Steak, hope you don't mind a Stelvio owner posting on your GRiSO forum.  If you want to move this to the non-GRiSO thread, I'm more than happy with that.  

Thanks for the great forum.  I suppose I now need to get a GRiSO, too!  Laughing

Cheers,
Shaun

I've got no problems with the Stelvio nor Stelvio riders posting here.  There are many denizens in a ghetto...

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special


Last edited by Steak on Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:42 pm

I have a pretty good idea of how engines work. I also have a very goood analytical mind. What always seemed so 'Wrong' to me was the fact that if all modern engines, especially Guzzis were 'Mapped up lean', how come they got such crappy fuel ecconomy. That was just wrong.

Obviously their behavior at lower engine speeds and loads was showing all the indicators of being almost incombustibly lean but what had me foxed is that I didn't understand how the narrow band O2 sensors were effecting the fueling in closed loop.

I was also deeply suspicious of what I was being told by 'Experts' because it was so obviously, palpably wrong! The problem was that I'm a bloke who is nearly sixty who grew up in an analog world. How digital interpretation of signals for fueling worked beyond the very simplest grasping of theory was a closed book. Reading up and prying the pages of that book open was very hard. Especially when o was constantly being bombarded by inaccurate information from other sources.

When I first met Mark he'd bought his bike to me for, I'd guess, more of a discussion on my views than any need to have it serviced. He's quite capable of doing that himself, but my constant expression of worries about the performance of the PCV-AT set up as usually used and provided must of piqued his interest. My deranged rantings were, luckily, backed up when I pulled the rocker covers off his bike and we were virtually swept out of the workshop on a tsunami of petrol fumes! Quite simply, the way it was working, or not, was plainly wrong.

From that day on the rest has basically been well documented, the PCV-AT came off, along with the expensive 'Reflash' and Mark embarked down the road of using Reader and Tunerpro to produce his own maps.

Apart from the fact I'm extraordinRily grateful because my bike is, quite simply, nut-bustingly good fun to ride, at least twice as much fun as it was before when it ran the 68S map and I was very happy with it then! But also because he has elevated my understanding of 'How Shit Works' exponentially and at the same time doesn't feel the need to patronise me or treat me like a (Complete.) idiot but at the same time he can guide me and will quite happily say "You don't have to understand that!" if my brow furrows and I go into Cro-Magnon mode. That's fine! As long as when I DO need to understand it I can ask, that's fine by me!

One of the things I've recently begun to understand is that in the right hands and used in conjunction with a decent map, an Autotune may well be a fine thing. For MY purposes it is complete overkill and I also deeply dislike the invasive nature of the hardware. That though is by the by and onl relevant to me and my needs

At the end of the day though for all of his self portrayal as a 'Pontificating Prick' the results of his work speak for themselves. The fact he's also a top bloke with a fine sense of humour, a charming and long-suffering Missus and is also willing to give his hard work and knowledge away for the benefit of all I think says far more about him and his attitude than I can.

It should be that the day you stop learning is the day your arse stops pointing at the ground! I'm good with that. I've learnt more about modern fuelling in the last eighteen months than I had in the previous fifteen years. That's gotta be a good thing!

Pete
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waterbottle
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:17 am

Smdl, You have a GRiSO with longer legs Smile
I think you have the perfect all round Guzzi cheers
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smdl
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:47 am

While it's new to me, I'm thinking that I'll have to agree! Seems like it will be the Swiss Army Knife of motorcycles!

Thanks,
Shaun
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:38 pm

I've just finished with a '13 Stelvio bought back from South Africa by a local Laverda Nutter. Apart from the TB's never having been touched it was actually in good shape but I gave up it a going over and changed its oil, checked tappets etc. then I flung in the 2O2 sensor map and took it for a flog. It's got an Ago pipe with dBK which sounds very nice but was a bit rich. I pulled out the trim to -4 and it idles ridiculously precisely between 1200 and 1450 pulls beautifully from idle to 'Stupid'. I know it's not perfect but for a 'Stab in the Dark' it's pretty damned good!

Pete


Last edited by Pete Roper on Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:46 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
idles ridiculously precisely between 2200 and 2450


I hope that's a typo? scratch
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:45 pm

Yep, I'll correct it. Maybe, if you pay me enough for a gram of good snort and a big titted hooker to snort it off! :-)
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WCB
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:37 am

Would this map work with the earlier Stelvio's or is the cam profile different?

Pete, They're just wrapping up my roller cam change (finally) and I'm curious. Do they keep the same cam profile that the bike had, or do they use the same cams and mapping of the new Stelvio's after the change?


Doug
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:07 am

To the best of my knowledge there is only one roller cam profile. (The Cali 14 May have a different one, I'm not sure.)

Also the idea that cam profiles changed with the flat tappet models is a misconception. Yes, when the A5 engine became the A8 the part # changed and it is commonly assumed that this was because the profile was changed. The thing is that is what it was, an assumption! If you actually go to the bother of graphing the profile you'll find it is identical on all models and engine series up until the advent of the roller engines, (With the exception of the 1200 Sport 8V. I have no idea why! And perhaps the Norge, I haven't graphed one of them.). The reason the part # changed is because at that point the factory started shimming the camshafts for end float and the shaft, not the lobes, is machined differently to accomodate the shims.

As for how closely the roller cam profile mimics the earlier flat tappet lift and duration I'd have to guess that the answer would be 'Pretty closely'. Why? Because when you rollerise a 1200 Sport, which as mentioned had a 'Stand alone' cam profile, it gets the same parts as any other roller converted bikes and consequently it has to be re-mapped. In the service bulletin about the swap a great palaver is made about the 'Special map' that has been developed for this conversion and how it must be uploaded after the engine has been rollerised. Only thing is if you look at this 'Special Map' it is in fact just the same shitty map they used in early 2009 Stelvio'Stelvio! What a crock! Very Happy

Given how sensitive the 8V motor is to even small changes to lift and duration my guess is that the map you were running before will be just dandy but given that Mark and I are going to be rollerising both our bikes soon I'm sure that one of the first things he'll do is go into hyper-nerd-frenzy mode and build a completely new map to compensate for any changes!!!

As it is I have some more information to impart about exactly how sensitive the 8V is to profile changes that I'll explain in another message after the weekend.

Pete
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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:55 am

The idea of the autotune/lambda sending in a signal that the ecu likes is tempting. But the ecu also learns from what it has to correct. And uses that over the whole rev range as a sort of precorrection.
But as the ecu likes it best at lambda 1, the only way that it won't correct the wong way is sending it lambda one signal all the time.

So maybe it is better to let the autotune work but not interfaering, just as a cumulative recording device, but I don't know if that is possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Stelvio/Guzzidiag - Temporarily Disconnect Power Commander    Today at 5:50 pm

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