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sidrat
Sfregiato
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PostSubject: No Start :-(   Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:51 am

Ok, so been out all day, stopped about 8 miles from home, went to re-start the bike, it had been stopped for 5 minutes. There was a noise from the starter as though it was going to start and then nothing. Turned off and on, everything works all the dash came up, but when i hit the start button there was a click under the seat. Tried putting it in gear and rocking it, nothing. Checked and re-seated the fuses, took all four solenoids off and swapped around the three that were the same, one of which i guess is the starter solenoid, nothing.

So now turn on the bike all ok, go to start there is a click and then 30 seconds later another click, but no start.

Had to recover the bike :-(

As there are three solenoids, i would think that swapping them around would sort out if they are bad, battery is charged and has started it before with a lot less juice, any suggestions?
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Tolle09
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:30 pm

Think the solenoids you mention are the relays, when I had a GRiSO I periodically had to keep nipping up the battery connections as they would slacken off just enough to cause a non start, but usually the dial wouldn't sweep
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:44 pm

Tolle09 wrote:
I periodically had to keep nipping up the battery connections as they would slacken off just enough to cause a non start

Funny enough mine was a little loose, but that wasn't the problem.

It was a Bl**dy fuse!!!!

I checked the 30amp ones and then later looked at the 15amp ones, not expecting them to be the problem, but missed one as it was p*ssing down at the time!, just looked at the manual now i am homes and dry and sure enough the third fuse that does the "startup relay coil"?? was blown.

Good news, but upset i didn't fix it at the side of the road instead of trailering it home, never mind you learn about your bike that way i guess
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Blue
Nibbio
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:57 pm

So we are just copying some others on here then!

I had the same and read the 'stratus interuptus' thread.......added a 20amp instead of the 15 and found some corrosion on one terminal. All good now, but I do whisper 'I love you' to her just as I press the starter button.
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Guzzi Cat
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:10 pm

This is a common problem and I got caught out once, the same thing No Starty and the B fuse had blown. If you check the battery connections and they are tight and free from corrision then there is a good chance that you are not getting enough current to the starter relay. The reason is that the wiring goes through the ignition and through a very roundabout route before it gets to the starter relay and can loose a little bit of current at the different terminals along the way.
The easy fix is to run a wire with an inline fuse directly from the battery positive terminal to the starter relay, you have to remove the wire that is fitted to pin No 5 on the relay, If I rember correctly It is the yellow wire and tape the end as it is now redundant and fit the wire from the battery to pin No 5 instead. By doing this you are supplying full power that is needed to operate the starter relay every time.
I done this after the one incident where it blew the fuse and with a little research discovered it is one of Guzzis long time quirks that they persist with using the same wiring loom that has this problem for yonks scratch

Of course it may not happen to you again for ages, but carry a few spare fuses.l just have full confidence in in it starting since I ran the wire. Thumbs Up
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Midlifecrisis
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:58 am

This is a frequent problem for me - I've even wired the starter relay direct as described above (with an in-line fuse), but still it blows the (new 15A in-line) fuse every now and then. I'm tempted to think that the gear on the starter solenoid gets stuck? (only because I once had a car that used to do that).

Suspect I'd have fewer problems if I used the bike more often (confession time - I have 6!  Embarassed  )

I buy 15A fuses in bulk!
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Guzzi Cat
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:34 pm

Midlifecrisis wrote:
This is a frequent problem for me - I've even wired the starter relay direct as described above (with an in-line fuse), but still it blows the (new 15A in-line) fuse every now and then. I'm tempted to think that the gear on the starter solenoid gets stuck? (only because I once had a car that used to do that).

Suspect I'd have fewer problems if I used the bike more often (confession time - I have 6!  Embarassed  )

I buy 15A fuses in bulk!

I would say that you are spot on with your diagnosis in your case Midlife, If the starter solenide gets stuck or slowed down by a millisecond it will blow the fuse. If it happens to me I will take off the starter and clean up the solenide workings and apply a very tiny amount of dry molly spray as I dont think it is a very big job.

But if I was lucky enough to have SIX bikes I wouldn't give a shit about the odd blown fuse cheers cheers
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:33 pm

Use a 20 Amp!
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Midlifecrisis
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:50 pm

Thanks for the advice guys. I have taken the solenoid off the starter and it looks clean and smooth. Will try to find some moly spray. I was also wondering if I should liberally grease the starter gears?

20A fuse - tempting, I know some people do this, it just seems like a bit of a bodge? - might end up blowing something more important than the fuse?

6 bikes - 4 of them are old Honda's from the early 1980's. The GRiSO is supposed to be my reliable modern bike!
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:07 am

Mid life crisis,

It is reliable - in the Italian spirit - would you call your Italian mistress reliable? Probably not...

No difference here.

Move on, nothing to see here!
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:29 am

The more electronics, the less reliable. BMW's are fast becoming my bread and butter .............. they are challenging H/D for my No. 1 position.
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http://www.biketowbrisbane.com.au
tocino
Nibbio
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:32 am

C'mon! Silly wiring / using too weak a fuse does not (IMHO) define a bike as unreliable. Seems as the years go by and manufacturing, etc. gets better and better people's definition of reliability gets tighter and tighter. This makes sense on one hand, but can be taken to the extreme.

Guzzi is a tiny manufacturer selling a fraction of the bikes that Honda, etc. produce so I expect that their bikes will have a few rough edges. Heck, for me it's part of what makes me like Guzzi's. In this case, sure, they could do a better job of getting a starter to turn over a 1200cc 11:1 twin (not an easy thing), but if all if takes is a 20AMP fuse (and carrying an extra) and checking battery connections once a year, and maybe running an inline fuse I say no big deal.

I'm with Ghezzi - the more advanced bikes get (ABS, active suspension, etc.) the more factors that can lead to a bike not starting / running - then you'll have an unreliable bike or a bike that lets you down (always a frustrating experience for sure). I surely would like a super-trick bike, but I would fear what happens when the warranty expires Smile

Just my (over caffinated) 2c
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Midlifecrisis
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:41 am

Don't get me wrong; I love my GRiSO (especially now she has a sexy Ipothesys twin pipe!) and I can live with carrying a pocket full of fuses (I might even build up the courage to fit a 20A one day!), but it does amuse me that the most reliable bike in my shed is a 1983 GL1100 naked Goldwing - starts on the button and runs like a sewing machine, but yes the Guzzi is sexier.

And I'd like to get the GRiSO starting problem solved
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:32 pm

Maybe we need a list of common problems that can occur with your GRiSO, certainly i seem to have had many of them !!!

I will get some 20 amp fuses.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:49 pm

Why do some people go into hysterics when they're told a fix that takes their bike beyond stock? Not aimed at you Midlife, just an observation from seeing many, many posts about how to fix your Guzzi when its quirks rise up from the depths.

A lot of owners happily stick an aftermarket pipe or rock strainer filter or different levers, or worse still, an "optimizer" horror box to fix their fueling and don't think twice about it. Yet, when a simple fuse update or wiring mod is mentioned, shrieking Devils abound, the price of whisky goes up and the unicorns in your 8V strut off in a huff!
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:22 pm

Mark, I agree with you (don't tell the rest of them though), but when it comes to "elektrikery" all bets are off.

Moto Guzzi is designed with a minimalist attitude, electrics included - this is all fine when your pride and joy is brand new - but don't tell the rest, that things deteriorate over time, and to be honest, the minimalist design philosophy doesn't really cut it in the real world.

Imagine, ---- no don't, I have said enough already.

I design electronics/electrics in my daily job and when it comes to a fuse, I look at what the required current is, what I expect the load to pull, what the power device can deliver - and them pick a fuse that will protect the power supply from letting smoke out it.

Sometimes I get it wrong and the fuse is too small - so I increase it in 25% increments until the fuse stops blowing. Works fine here in mission critical scientific applications.

Fer fecks sake Midlifecrisis, stop having a mid life crisis, bung in a 20A fuse and go ride. After a while you will forget you ever had an issue.

I carried out the direct wiring mod to my starter (with an in-line fuse) someyears back. Originally I put in a 7.5 Amp - worked pretty well for a few months. One cool day at a rally, fuse blew. "Black Betty" now has a 15 Amp fuse protecting her inner gizzards. No more issues - but if I do, 20 Amp is the next step.

Really, none of this is rocket science - take advice from those that know - don't hide behind the "it's not as designed" fallacy - designers often don't get it right - ever wondered why so much electrical/electronics shit has Rev 005 or C on it? First or early versions has some issues and they have been re-designed with bigger fuses so customers don't come screaming back at them.

Mid life, no offence meant, but when we meat up we will have copious amounts of beer, followed by some good rum - when are you coming over to Orstralia anyway?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:38 pm

This has always been my theory too Tony. The problem of the Guzzi starter's solenoid supply current having to run hither and yon, up and down the bike half a dozen times before being asked to perform its allotted task is not new. It's always been a crappy bit of poorly thought out engineering but it does, normally, work.

On older bikes the voltage drop used to lead to arcing at the solenoid contacts resulting in a 'Thud' at, but no spin of the starter. With the newer bikes it leads to the fuse blowing due to the increased current draw. The simple fact is though that swapping to a higher rated fuse is not going to risk the bike bursting into flames! If the wiring shorts out the current dump will far outstrip any fuse so it'll blow! I've had one modern bike I had to do a secondary relay install on and I only did that because the customer had come from a long way away and was passing through so he couldn't leave the bike with me. While a bypass is a good fix I haven't found it 'Necessary' in other cases.

As for my bike? Never had to. Never had a problem. Only time mine went silly was at Mark's place in Wagga a couple of months ago and that was due to a dirty kill switch rather than a blown fuse.

Pete
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:42 pm

beetle wrote:
and the unicorns in your 8V strut off in a huff!

I have more than ONE unicorn!
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Midlifecrisis
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:57 pm

OK guys. I know when to bow to superior knowledge - I promise to fit a 20A next time the 15A blows! No offence taken, I appreciate the advice.

Tony, not sure when Australia is next on my agenda (confess it's a pleasure I've yet to experience), but my mother-in-law is coming over to Brisbane later this month for a couple of weeks holiday!? (she's more of a brandy drinker than beer, but she'd probably be up for a few glasses of rum). Unfortunately I suspect that her biking conversation would be limited.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:31 am

Midlife, we aren't having a go, really. The thing is though that these things really are, a.) Rare, b.) Easily addressed and c.) No sillier than problems faced by a host of other machines.

As for the unicorns? Yeah, they're a king sized pain in the arse but what's a bloke supposed to do???

Pete
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tocino
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:43 am

What's the ECU code for Unicorns? Mark, do you disable them in your maps?
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CPB
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:33 am

Same thing just happened to me yesterday. Bike was on a tender all winter. Volt readout was always 14.2, when I checked it. Went on a big ride on Sunday, no problems. Went out for a ride yesterday and stopped for gas. Would not start after that. Was dead.

Was only 5 miles from home and to my surprise, my bike shop sent their truck to get me! (Thanks Razee). Just called me and told me it was a bad battery. Doesn't make sense? But they say it's good to go.
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GHTE
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:31 pm

I had a new battery and it did the same thing. Battery was only carrying a surface charge.
Replaced it with a US made Deka. Bang fires up every time and has done for a year now.
Make sure your battery is holding a deep charge and has a good amp hour rating.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:25 pm

tocino wrote:
What's the ECU code for Unicorns?


Sorry, that's Secret Squirrell business. I could tell you, but, you know....


Quote :
Mark, do you disable them in your maps?


Hells no! I do my best to make them happier.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:29 pm

It seems that some AGM batteries don't take kindly to being left on a tender. I'm also fairly convinced that a large part of all battery problems suffered by people with AGM batteries, especially on new or near new machines, is due to the batteries not being put into service properly.

You CAN'T just chuck the acid in, install the battery and go. The instructions in the box tell you this very clearly but meh? Who reads instructions? Only an idiot would bother with that.

You must allow the battery to sit for at least a couple of hours, I always leave them overnight, after the acid is added. This allows it to be absorbed by the mats. After this it needs a quick trickle charge at fairly high amps and can then be installed in the bike. It is NOT a good idea to not put the cap on top of the cells like the ape at the shop didn't to one of my customer's RSV-4. That cost the shop a new bike.......

If the acid isn't allowed time to be absorbed into the mats when the engine is started, (Oh, there'll be enough current for that!) the plates will warp compromising the battery's life and performance and if you're lucky the acid will boil out all over your bike!

Guzzi actually sent out a tech bulletin stating that batteries wouldn't be warrantied unless the service instructions were followed, (How they would police this I have no idea?) due to the large number of damaged batteries they were experiencing. I actually really rate the Yuassa batteries. I have had one dud one in nine years and that was one I bought for my bike.

One common problem is that you can get a 16AH battery and a 20AH battery that are outwardly physically identical. Needless to say the 16AH one is notably cheaper so both shops of lesser quality and owners will tend to go for one of them and then bleat and whinge when it won't turn over a dirty great high compression twin when the weather gets cold and it has a shorter service life!

Buy the 20AH one. My first one lasted six years and that included some longish periods of inactivity!

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: No Start :-(   Today at 10:06 pm

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