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 Okay,here's a question

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Biondino
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PostSubject: Okay,here's a question   Sat May 09, 2015 11:45 am

The other day, Jacquie was riding the G and just before she got to the garage, the oil warning came on along with the red triangle. It only came on at a specific rpm. About 1500. It doesn't come on at idle, and if you throttle above 1500, it goes off and goes back to idle without coming on.

I changed the oil and filter this morning even though it wasn't really due and it was fine for a bit. After about 100 mile ride, it again came on on decel at exactly 1500 rpm and behaved the exact same way as above.

What are the opinions? There aren't any noises coming out of the motor out of ordinary. Have the sensors been a problem? Should I have the dealer come and get it and not ride it until they can determine what the problem is?

What say you'se?
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sat May 09, 2015 2:45 pm

Sensor! Not being very sensible is it?
Or you're being conned by the connector.
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Steak
L'Innominato
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sat May 09, 2015 2:54 pm

A bunk sensor is my first thought as well, but that seems to be a problem more characteristic of the 1100 motor than the 8V.

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2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
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Pete Roper
GRiSO
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sat May 09, 2015 4:43 pm

Yeah, my guess is sensor. There has been an update on the sensors, not to a better one, it's purely economic.

New sensor#641541 and it needs an adaptor #887123

This is the third board I've posted this info on this morning! Very Happy

Pete
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mark111
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sun May 10, 2015 3:35 am

Or you could try a BMW one that they use in multiple bike and car models which has the same connector as the standard GRiSO one.
Part no. 12611730160 which I believe cross references to a number of other BMW part numbers.

I bought one from Ebay - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The only thing to consider is that the base is broader than the Guzzi part making it a bit snug and you will need a 24mm spanner or preferably a 24mm tube socket to allow you to tighten it correctly.
Can't guarantee it will be any more reliable than the Guzzi part but it does work.
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sun May 10, 2015 3:44 am

Thanks gents!

Crap sensor was my thought too. I'll order one up. Is the location the same place as on the older Guzzi's?

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sun May 10, 2015 8:28 am

No, it sits more towards the centre of the Vally and further back.

Pete.
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Phang
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sun May 10, 2015 8:58 am

To use the new oil pressure switch #641541 mentioned by Pete, besides the adaptor, you got to replace the "mini timer" connector on the wiring harness to spade connector as well.
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sun May 10, 2015 12:46 pm

Here's an interesting development. We rode home from my Mom's about 100 miles and the GRiSO ran fine, but did throw the warning like before a couple of times.

Near home we stopped for fuel and when we took off, the GRiSO ran like a plug literally was unplugged. At a about 1500 rpm, it returned to running like normal, but anytime at idle or just above, it would do the same thing.

It is behaving exactly like it has a bad plug wire. I checked the connection to the coils etc and all were tight. What makes me think it's a plug wire is that it smooths out almost immediately anything pretty much above idle.

Is there any chance that a bad plug wire might cause the odd oil light warning? I'm wondering if there's some stray voltage flying around if the ECU might toss a random code....
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Sun May 10, 2015 2:42 pm

Plug cap. Take the covers off the HT leads and look for the spark jumping to earth on the rocker cover.

Pete
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Mon May 11, 2015 4:40 am

I'm surprised, I changed the ends to the SB05E's right after she got the bike. Perhaps it's just loose on the wire. I'm going to investigate tonight after work.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Mon May 11, 2015 4:47 am

Nah, that's all good Doug. Check that the top boots aren't twisted off and arcing but if it ain't that then? Well s'gottabee be sumfink else.

More clues! Ambient temp. Road conditions. Traffic I know it sounds silly but all of these things can give data to work on. A lot of the sensors on modern bikes have major effects on how shot happens. It's no longer points and coils/carburetors. Or even 16/15M fuel injection. Having said that this sounds more *Mechanical* as I 'Hardware' rather than 'Software' related.

Pete
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Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Mon May 11, 2015 12:15 pm

I don't think the running-on-one-cylinder symptom would be related to the oil pressure warning. Have you looked for any resulting error codes regarding the oil pressure warning?

When my 1100 had a similar problem it threw two error codes, which were essentially for detecting an open circuit when it shouldn't be open, and for detecting a closed circuit when that should not be found (both as judged by whether the engine was running, perhaps at some minimum rpm).

I bought a new oil pressure sensor, but before I installed it I found the connection at the top of my existing sensor was extremely loose. I tightened it up by some judicious crimping, and haven't had the problem since (in 5 months of riding). Maybe a loose connection is your problem too -- it is the kind of thing that could be sensitive to engine rpm.

Good luck.
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Mon May 11, 2015 4:30 pm

I have an alternate theory. I checked the plug wires tonight and they're good. No voltage leakage. I did notice though, when starting that the battery voltage dropped to 10.2.

Is it possible that the poor running at anything below 1500 rpm could be caused by a bad battery?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Mon May 11, 2015 4:40 pm

Unlikely as long as when the engine is running it is showing 13V+
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Mon May 11, 2015 4:50 pm

Hmmm. It is. In fact it's pumping around 13-7 -13.9 at 1500 rpm.

I pulled the plugs and neither looked sooty from a bad burn. Both were a beautiful light tan.
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Tue May 12, 2015 11:45 am

I'm gonna do a valve set tonight after work. I'm wondering if the tappets are going tits. Maybe that's the reason for crappy running that has suddenly come on.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Tue May 12, 2015 1:40 pm

Could be.
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Tue May 12, 2015 3:35 pm

Okay. Service in the garage shed some light.

1. The bad idle was clearly caused by a cracked metal end on the plug wire where it goes into the coil. It's arcing like a lightning storm. Cleaned it and taped it for now which helped immensly but the end or perhaps the entire plug wire should be replaced. The end of the wire is pretty cooked near the fitting from arcing.

2. I checked the valves anyway, even though it had only been about 3000 miles and can clearly see the tell tale signs of the tappets going away. Particularly the intake on the right side. Left side intake is going too, but not as bad.

3. Seeing that, I changed the oil again, and found metal particulate on the drain plug.

Very disappointing. I thought if any flat tappet bike had a shot at longevity, it would be Jacquie's. She rarely rides in the rain or cold rain unless we're on a long trip. It gets frequent oil changes with high quality oil. She almost never rides it for less than 100 miles when she's out on it, so it gets good and hot.

To add to the dissapointment, I called our local dealer to tell him of our findings. He stated that they couldn't get it in to even verify the problem exists until mid June. He also stated that like my 09 Stelvio, that if fault is found, that Guzzi would only cover the parts, not the labor.

I thought I had read that on the A8 motors from 2011 onwards, they would extend the warranty and cover it. Has that changed?

Anyway, at least she has other bikes to ride for the Summer. The Cafe' and the Ballabio. She is very sad to be losing the use of her baby for what will probably be the whole season.
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89millegt
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Tue May 12, 2015 8:17 pm

Doug, that sucks! How many miles on the GRiSO now?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Tue May 12, 2015 8:51 pm

Well yes, it does suck to get the double whammy. At least once it's rollerised its done. I find it interesting that MY '09-'11 seem to be particularly prone to it. No idea why but it was after this the tappet part number had its final change and although the later ones appear identical one has to assume that there was some change.

Doug. Look on the *insides* of the cylinder heads, on the side that is in the valley, not the inside of the cambox chamber. You will see a date stamp, (Circular stamping looks a bit like a representation of a sun.) near the banjo fitting where the cooling oil is delivered to the head. Now in that vicinity look for a spot in the paint that looks as if it's been touched with a drill bit. This is the indicator of whether Jaqui's bike will need a 'B' or a 'C' kit. If there is the drill mark it only needs a 'B' kit which doesn't require removal of the heads to fit as the inlet valves are already shimmed. This makes the job a lot easier. If there is no drill Mark in the paint then I'm afraid it's heads off time!

Pete
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LBC Tenni
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Tue May 12, 2015 11:21 pm

Must have changed the chemistry of the steel to make them less prone to wear?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Tue May 12, 2015 11:43 pm

Nah. Both gen 2 and gen 3 tappets are forged steel with a DLC coating.

Interesting thing is that DLC is very good at sliding, so much so lubrication can be counter productive, counter intuitive though that may be! What it hates is impact so it's vey important that valve clearances be correct.

The bloke I've been corresponding with about this issue has sent
me links to a couple of very interesting papers on the subject and while we'll probably never be certain that we've got to the bottom of what the combination of factors are that cause the failures slurry damage from the delaminating DLC is clearly visible both to the naked eye in weR paterns on the surface of the tappet and in the eleton-microscopy samples he has been testing.

Interestingly it seems that nice, clean oil may in fact be MORE likely to cause damage than dirty oil! This might explain why a lot of failures seem to occur soon after a service! Also in most estreme cases fairs can occur in around fifty cycles or less! That's about the length of time between the starter turning and the engine firing up! Scary!

Pete
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Wed May 13, 2015 4:35 am

89millegt wrote:
Doug, that sucks! How many miles on the GRiSO now?

I think she has 33,500 or thereabouts.

To say she is bummed out is a gross understatement.
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Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Wed May 13, 2015 4:40 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Well yes, it does suck to get the double whammy. At least once it's rollerised its done. I find it interesting that MY '09-'11 seem to be particularly prone to it. No idea why but it was after this the tappet part number had its final change and although the later ones appear identical one has to assume that there was some change.

Doug. Look on the *insides* of the cylinder heads, on the side that is in the valley, not the inside of the cambox chamber. You will see a date stamp, (Circular stamping looks a bit like a representation of a sun.) near the banjo fitting where the cooling oil is delivered to the head. Now in that vicinity look for a spot in the paint that looks as if it's been touched with a drill bit. This is the indicator of whether Jaqui's bike will need a 'B' or a 'C' kit. If there is the drill mark it only needs a 'B' kit which doesn't require removal of the heads to fit as the inlet valves are already shimmed. This makes the job a lot easier. If there is no drill Mark in the paint then I'm afraid it's heads off time!

Pete

Inside the valve cover or on the outside?

Any idea what the factory is doing for warranty? Originally, I thought the rollout for kit for the 08-09's that failed they were supplying the parts, but on the later models, they were covering the whole thing? It's not a huge deal, but it would be nice, since I just got over doing it on the Stelvio.

Oh, and your cams and tappets (packaged and marked with which side they came out of) are on the way back to you. I can't thank you enough for that.


Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Okay,here's a question   Today at 4:47 am

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