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 How to get fueling perfection

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sun May 17, 2015 1:00 pm

bradbusa wrote:

Can this be made to achieve a ratio of 14.7 during cruising and light throttle applications, as well as 12.8 during WOT?

No.

Using a 3rd party ECU that could accept wideband input would work, I suppose. Big $$. Probably need a MAF sensor too.


You can do this without the wideband gear. Just build a map based on logged AFR as I have done for the maps I've built, but edit the map so you get the values you need. Finding the acceleration table in the 5AM software would help. If it exists. The acceleration correction table has not yet been identified for the software.
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pkroupa
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:35 pm

I have a little comment about the dummy load. You are using 15 Ohm resistor as a dummy load. Then the current will be between 0,6-0,8A depends on ECU voltage. I guess that this current is enough to trick the ECU (simillar to "hot" heater). Then we are talking about 10W power loss. Thereafter the 20W resistor will be OK. Yes will be clamped to the frame for better cooling.
Im writing this because our shop does not have 50W resistor on stock. But they have a 20W one. :-)
Petr
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:40 pm

I tried a 20W when first experimenting with this. It'll get very, very hot. Be aware.
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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:56 am

Hello .

A) The ECU 5 AM, when the air temperature is below 19 °, the lambda integrator is 0.00%.
Ecu / lambda signal 0.
closed loop, If lambda 1 above 19°, but 1m30s after return below 19 °, lambda 0.00%again

B) Then when the gas is opened (TPS), the ECU puts lambad off.
When the engine speed is not stabilized and the TPS is opened up (acceleration) Lambda off / signal integrator 0,00%.

scratch
See after 2mn and look closed loop
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:08 am

Err...no.


Suspect


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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:57 pm

beetle wrote:
Err...no.


Suspect



Err.....yes i'am sûre Sad
See PDF Learning GRiSO page 109
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:48 pm

Yes, that tells you the conditions at which the map comes out of warm up mode and goes CL. So?

Are you suggesting that it only runs CL at idle?
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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:21 pm

For ecu 5 AM model 8v
CL When the engine speed is stabilized rpm a few minutes 1200/3500 rpm approximately.
And air temperature >20°

If you turn handle gas engine (TPS) lambda is off.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:09 pm

As Mark said, 'Errrr. No.'.

Sorry it's a bit more involved than that.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:16 pm

You're misinterpreting the document. The 5AM uses lambda at idle when:

Air temp >19
Engine temp >30
Warm-up period is finished (100 seconds)

When air temp is at 19 or less, lambda is ignored, but technically it's still in CL because the stepper motor controls idle.

Once the TPS signal is outside the idle range (1150 - 1250), air temp is ignored with regard to lambda and only used for injection pulse-width correction. Lambda is active and the system runs CL once the engine temp rises to 55 degrees and above. It is active in the 1200 - 4000 RPM range, approximately.


.



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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:19 am

Thank you for the correction detail, but what's happening when you turn the throttle to accelerate Question
Smile
Lambda is off or on ?


Finally, i think that the lambda probe is active on a very short time.
I drive very rarely stabilized engine speed.

Pete Roper wrote:
As Mark said, 'Errrr. No.'.
Sorry it's a bit more involved than that.

Oh ! yes !, actually changes everything!
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:55 am

In a nutshell, when the engine is above 55 degrees and out of the warm-up period, lambda is always active between 1200-4000 RPM. Even under acceleration. The thing to remember is that trims are only applied if the lambda signal is either rich or lean under a steady throttle. That is why the trims can take several hundred kilometres to stabilise.


.
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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:02 am

beetle wrote:
Even under acceleration.
.
No !, I do not believe.

Even under acceleration, lambda is off.
Lambda has no time to correct the Injection.
+
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:27 am

Did you read my last post at all? I think not. Go back and read the post again.

Rolling Eyes
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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:10 pm

Oh ! yes sorry !, it's ok !. Embarassed
beetle wrote:
The thing to remember is that trims are only applied if the lambda signal is either rich or lean under a steady throttle.

What matters beetle is that you are happy when you change the operation with your tools, map, technical investigations. Very Happy
Guzzistes will make his own tests and will draw a conclusion.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:04 pm

jean cool wrote:

What matters beetle is that you are happy when you change the operation with your tools, map, technical investigations. Very Happy
Guzzistes will make his own tests and will draw a conclusion.


In other words, you still don't believe me. Your prerogative.




Sleep
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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:15 am

beetle wrote:
jean cool wrote:

What matters beetle is that you are happy when you change the operation with your tools, map, technical investigations. Very Happy
Guzzistes will make his own tests and will draw a conclusion.


In other words, you still don't believe me. Your prerogative.

Sleep

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Hello
I agree with the sentence you énnoncée below.

beetle wrote:
The thing to remember is that trims are only applied if the lambda signal is either rich or lean under a steady throttle.

Well !
zirconium probes are not the quickest to react and send the information to the ECU.
So then ++++++ - - - - - - -, it takes a certain time ..........
Lambda correction needs a stable regime for the ECU corrects. ok ! Wink

Each ECU also has its own operation with specific programs based on own standards in each country (quality gasoline).
Each bike is a little different with the model ECU, intake, exhaust, setting.
Therefore it is difficult for me to tell you and answer yes agree with everything you say.
A forum also allows for different opinions, even if I am wrong in my reasoning.
It must be technically able to convince argue.
Maybe you're partially right, or no doubt you've largely due.
But the most obvious and demonstrative is trying his motorcycle with embedded hardware and see the real to correction on the engine operation.

Also do not forget that I am French and I do not master the English language.
It's hard to talk about a subject like this with you.
On the one hand it is very tecnique and secondly I do not have the skills to properly assess the functioning of Injexion system.

But, i try to participate because it interests me.
Also please, a little flexibility would be greatly appreciated. Sad

Sorry, I am not a learned scholar.
So you have my opinion and it is not a safe bet, this is not a certainty confused .
So guzzistes do their own analysis.

Ooh La La
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:23 am

jean cool wrote:

zirconium probes are not the quickest to react and send the information to the ECU.
So then ++++++ - - - - - - -, it takes a certain time ..........
Lambda correction needs a stable regime for the ECU corrects. ok ! Wink


That is why it takes a long period at steady throttle before the ECU will apply trims. I've already explained that to you.



Quote :

Each ECU also has its own operation with specific programs based on own standards in each country (quality gasoline).
Each bike is a little different with the model ECU, intake, exhaust, setting.


Here you are wrong again. All 5AM ECU's operate the same way, regardless of what bike or software they run. Lambda control operates the same way in the Stelvio, GRiSO, Ducati St3, Ducati Monster et al.

Every 5AM Guzzi, every 15RC or 15AM has the same map, regardless of country. They are all built to meet the same Euro standard at the time of manufacture. There are no maps for Euro or American or Australian models.
And before you tell me French bikes are limited to 100 horsepower, I know. Guess what? French bikes have the same maps as Australian or American bikes. There is no horsepower limit in the maps. Guzzi just said 'these are limited' and did nothing.


Quote :
Therefore it is difficult for me to tell you and answer yes agree with everything you say.
A forum also allows for different opinions, even if I am wrong in my reasoning.
It must be technically able to convince argue.


What can I say? You are wrong and I am right. It's as simple as that. You don't understand or your too arrogant to admit you are wrong.

Quote :
Maybe you're partially right, or no doubt you've largely due.


No, I am 100% right.


Quote :

But the most obvious and demonstrative is trying his motorcycle with embedded hardware and see the real to correction on the engine operation.


Agreed, and that is what have done. I understand fuel injection, especially Magneti Marelli. You clearly do not.



Quote :

Also do not forget that I am French and I do not master the English language.
It's hard to talk about a subject like this with you.
On the one hand it is very tecnique and secondly I do not have the skills to properly assess the functioning of Injexion system.



Then do not argue with me about this subject.


Quote :

Also please, a little flexibility would be greatly appreciated. Sad


You can't be flexible with reality. It is the way it is.

I'm right. You're wrong. Accept it.

End.


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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:47 pm

beetle wrote:
Every 5AM Guzzi, every 15RC or 15AM has the same map, regardless of country. They are all built to meet the same Euro standard at the time of manufacture. There are no maps for Euro or American or Australian models.
And before you tell me French bikes are limited to 100 horsepower, I know. Guess what? French bikes have the same maps as Australian or American bikes. There is no horsepower limit in the maps. Guzzi just said 'these are limited' and did nothing.
Okay with that  Wink
That's your interpretation that is punctilious.  Thumbs Up


beetle wrote:
Then do not argue with me about this subject.
Why forum is your property?
Just banish me from the forum so.
Or does not answer me or ignore me  Very Happy

I believe that you must calm yourself.
Your post is very informative, your opinion seems to approach the truth.
So stay cool.

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beetle wrote:
No, I am 100% right.

Err .. no !

What is certain is that my bike is not like all the Stelvio and do not necessarily react like your bike.
The distribution are now different, the map also, and many other things .
Already between two identical bikes there are sometimes different reactions to the injection fonctioning.
All is not uniform.
You can not put everyone under your perspective, sorry for you.

Bye tongue
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bioman
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:31 pm

Very Happy   Oh, I love this forum!!   Very Happy
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:52 pm

The fact that yours is broken means that it will not behave like a properly functioning one. The way that all W5AM systems work though is essentially the same.

It doesn't worry me that you wish to believe nonsense. What does worry me though is that you may convince some others who are naive and inexperienced that you know what you are talking about and that could get them into a whole heap of grief. It's not about you snowflake!
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:39 pm

jean cool wrote:

Why forum is your property?
Just banish me from the forum so.
Or does not answer me or ignore me  Very Happy

Sigh. Don't be silly, of course it's not my forum and you are welcome here. I can't ignore you if you sprout nonsense or bad information.


Quote :

Your post is very informative, your opinion seems to approach the truth.
So stay cool.


No, my opinion is the truth. I'm the coolest.



Quote :
beetle wrote:
No, I am 100% right.

Err .. no !


Er.. yes. What can I say? You conclusions are incorrect. Your knowledge of this subject is full of misinterpretations and bad conclusions. 'Grisology' a technical forum, and I won't have you mislead any of the members with your poppycock.



Quote :
What is certain is that my bike is not like all the Stelvio and do not necessarily react like your bike.
The distribution are now different, the map also, and many other things .
Already between two identical bikes there are sometimes different reactions to the injection fonctioning.
All is not uniform.


Get this through your dense head: the ECU in your Stelvio operates under the same logic and signal input as every other bike equipped with a 5AM ECU. Lambda control functions under the same principles. The map may be different, but the ECU works the same way.



Sleep
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:11 pm

There is one small thing here, that I wish to throw in, and that is no two Guzzis are the same, EXCEPT for the ECU and standard mapping (per model ie 2V vs 4V). There are minor differences and this may even include the setup of the throttle bodies!

Shock horror, yes I know.

Fiddle with any of the bits and things may appear to get better, but in fact may actually get worse. Don't ask me how I know...
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jean cool
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:52 am

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:
There is one small thing here, that I wish to throw in, and that is no two Guzzis are the same, EXCEPT for the ECU and standard mapping (per model ie 2V vs 4V). There are minor differences and this may even include the setup of the throttle bodies!

Shock horror, yes I know.

Fiddle with any of the bits and things may appear to get better, but in fact may actually get worse. Don't ask me how I know...

Hello Oz1200Guzzi
Yes !
Agree with your point.
We realize that it is not always easy to understand what is happening.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hello beetle
beetle wrote:
but the ECU works the same way.

Yes, but Sometimes resulat is different from a motorcycle to another, conditions general and many things unique to the equipment, parts.

First, let me say that a forum is open to all the members when they respect them.
Provided you have the technical and real arguments.
This is not because beetle made its own positive experience that will be both for all Guzzi motorcycle.
So I do not see why beetle have the right to forbid me to give my opinion.
I ride a Guzzi engine since 2009 and I have the return of many other guzzistes experiences, so I give man opinion here even though beetle is not happy.

I recognize that beetle knows the subject, but i'ts not a reason to close the valve to the other.
Then I sometimes mistaken on some information, and if I am aware of the error, I joined the best idea that another member present here.
At the beginning of your technical explanation, you do not even talking about the fact that the lambda probe reflected a correction to a steady state.
on / Correction ++++ - - - - - 1200 / 3500rpm

After my speech correcting on action lambda (a little mala right) and finally and give a little more technical details, and there! I say bravo, data information seems correct.

But what you do not understand because you're obtuse and pretentious (even condescending with me, shame) is in reality when riding with a motorcycle there are things happening that are not always identical.
Although the ECU is technically identical, engine concrete reaction to the injection is rarely equal.
The differences are often noticed just in the niche 1200/3500 rpm or there is most sensitive.
Many parameters in the environment and that each motorcycle is almost unique in its reaction.
For example a few details, a geographic location, altitude, hot cold, wet, 5AM ECU, 15RC, trottle ramp ........
Guzzistes and many find that their bikes do not work all the same way.

Then I experienced real and not with learned phrases like you know how.
And what matters is the reality when you're turning the throttle on the road, Australia, Norway, and Africa.

Yesterday I spoke with a stelviste which took 2 Stelvio (years different models) and rolled in africa, germany. Motorcycles do not react the same way in some niche rpm.

I also tested for a few years with a potentiometer on the air sensor.
This is something very simple.
Can be modulated on mapping and injection is shifted in the tables.
Well according to the exhaust temperature was winter, the injection yield surprising results.
And the lambda sensor no longer any action when my unit was set with a strong enrichment.
When I wanted to ride on the right road or highway, I did not put the module has on and off my gas consumption was down.
So if you want to save fuel leave your original lambda act.
It does very well in a stabilized engine speed range 3000/3500 rpm (on a stable long time).

In the end, it is possible that the hardware and the technical demo of beetle improves injection in functioning operation of your motorcycle. yes! but not sure!.

The best is to try real.
It is useless to say loop ....
I am right
I am right
I am right

Oh, I never said that beetle is completely wrong in that statement.
In theory, I think a lot of information is close to the truth, but the reality can sometimes surprise some guzzistes or some will worshiped.


Ah ! I forget you add beetle is right
the ! I good

return back on PDF guzzitek. and read.
Then the Best is to try the idea beetle . Wink
Will be wonderful for you, who knows!
I would stay longer on this post so as not to m 'harp on a subject that I find more complicated than a few sentences can say.

Ciao ! forever.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: How to get fueling perfection    Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:57 am

I give up. Adding you to my ignore list. You're a moron.



cheers
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