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 The Look of Mayonnaise

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FreshEgg
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


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Join date : 2013-09-11

PostSubject: The Look of Mayonnaise   Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:24 pm

Adjusted the valves this weekend and here are some random findings:


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Visible condensation in the right valve train.

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Associated mayonnaise in right valve cove, as you might expect.


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Left valve train looked very clean but ironically found BOTH exhaust valve clearances had opened to 0.55mm. Hope this isn't the first step down the road to ruin... Everything else very close to spec .

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Left valve cover was pretty clean with just a tiny trace of emulsified oil.


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Sparkplugs were uniform and looked pretty good. This after running an early Beetle Map for a year and 5000mi.

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The NGKs look perfectly serviceable but I'm giving these Denso Irridiums a try, next. Lets see if there is anything to what the Subaru fanboys say...


A couple of snap shots indicating my experience with Beetle Map. Bike is a 2009 GRiSO with QuatD silencer and BMC Filter:

(1) A Fast weekend in the twisties of Oregon:
Trip: 700 mi
Avg. Speed: 46 mph
Max. Speed: 102 mph
Fuel Economy: 42.0 mpg

(2) Commuting / Mixed - 9mi ea, way. 80mph highway blast in the morning, when there is little traffic. 15mph traffic jam going home.
Trip: 436 mi
Avg. Speed: 26 mph
Max. Speed: 92 mph
Fuel Economy: 33.6 mpg

On the "068" Map i was running prior to this, I was getting 39 mpg and 23 mpg respectively, with poor throttle response. The only "difficulties" i have experienced are stumbling when engine cold. Entirely my fault as i was running CO Balance @ -15. Detonation / loss of power when i goose it with the engine very hot ,like when you first escape a traffic jam. This is only with HEAVY application of throttle.

Do the Beetle Maps work? Fuck Yeah! I am most grateful.
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beetle
GRiSO
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:45 am

The secret to 'no mayo' is flog the GRiSO like a red headed stepchild. Don't be afraid of high revs and give it the berries.  Twisted Evil

However, mayo plus .55mm gap may indicate bad things happening to cams.
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Steak
L'Innominato
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:22 am

The Egg gives it the berries just fine...

Interesting though, compared to the GRiSOs I have serviced here in Seattle, this is the first time I've seen mayo in the rocker covers.

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2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
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FreshEgg
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:01 am

Recall that I reported finding my left exhaust tappets had opened up to 0.55mm, a few days back. Roper advised do not start motor without further investigation and kindly related instructions to pull the cam boxes. Pauldaytona also posted a service bulletin from Moto Guzzi NA on cam replacement to the library on this site.

Thank You, both.

Unfortunately I found the following:

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Exhaust lifter / follower and cam lobe beginning to fail. Note: the dark DLC coating on the intake lifter at the top of picture is wearing off but it passes the fingernail test and feels very smooth. Its the shiny one that is toast.

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Exhaust lifter is pitted and concave.

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Exhaust cam lobe is scuffed.


Obviously we are in for a cam replacement and there are appear to be 3 options:

(1) replace (1) cam and (2) lifters for left cylinder. Estimate $400USD for parts. anticipate procedure would be eezy-peezy.

(2) replace cam & lifter, BOTH cylinders. $800USD parts. Also easy procedure.

(3) Roller conversion Kit C (I think. Bike is 2008 manufacture). $1700USD parts and the heads have to come off. Major pain-in-ass.

Questions:

(a) Is it advisable to replace cam & lifters, one side only?

(b) If i'm going to be el-cheapo about this. Does anybody have a good (I MEAN GOOD!) used cam with available for sale after converting to the roller kit?? The subject  bike has about 18K miles on it. (I would way prefer to spend the money on long deferred suspension improvements / have other bikes to feed / i found a couple of pieces of gravel in the crannies under the rocker box, left over from last year's crash. Maybe this motor is doomed, anyway).

(c) If i exercise better judgement and go with the roller kit. Where can i procure one without too much delay?

Best,
JL
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f-man
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:24 am

Do the right thing.

Convert to the roller kit. Yes it´s realy pain in the ass, but any other doing is wasting time and money. Here in Europe is it cheaper to buy a Kit B and the missing parts to Kit C extra.

Good luck

Sven


Last edited by f-man on Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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wardentm
Nibbio
Nibbio


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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:34 am

Great photos, thanks for posting.
Sorry for your situation, good you seen an issue and found it prior to worse ultimately happening.
How many ks on this motor ?, easy ? Hard ?
Good luck with the repairs.
Please keep us posted.
Caoi
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:06 am

OK, I did a reply to this and it's vanished. So I'll do it again, (Sigh!)

Do not even think of just replacing one side. Also don't bugger about with the flat tappet option. You are almost at pulling the heads off, if you give them a yank they'll just come off once you've taken off the header pipes and disconnected the inlet manifolds.

As far as replacing bits goes don't buy the 'C' kit. Buy a 'B' kit and just add the bits you need.

You can easily measure the head gaskets you need when the heads are off. The shims for the inlet valve springs are pennies, as are the inlet and outlet manifold gaskets.

AF-1 in Texas will sell you a 'B' kit for $1050

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Order the gaskets and shims at the same time.

Note to Aussies. If you order the bits through me to do this it will cost you NO MORE than if you buy direct but I get a trade discount from AF-1. It would be nice of my research was rewarded, even by a small amount. There isn't much money in Guzzis but if you don't want to support a 'Stealer'? So be it.
Add in probably another $100-150 for all the other shite, take the heads to a head shop and get the shims installed, (Probably billed out at an hour max.) and you're good to go.

If you have a FSH then you should get the kit for free but if the bike is out of the two year warranty period you will have to pay for the installation. Note that the bike HAS to have been serviced to schedule of either miles or time. If you have a 20,000 km bike and it's four years old and it's only had two services? Sayonara! The factory WON'T give you a kit. Do I agree it's good practice? NO but it's how it works, no exceptions. Don't blame your dealer or service agent of you get knocked back.

Up until I looked today, or rather the last time I looked, a 'B' kit in the US was only something like $700 US! Obviously someone at HQ got smart Sad . It is still a LOT cheaper to go this way than go the 'C' kit.

Pete
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:09 am

Sorry, that link doesn't work but go to their website and hit 'Shop at AF1' and throw.

1A002063

Into the search engine.

Pete
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mark111
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:32 am

Interesting there was mayonnaise only on the right side, this is reminiscent of my green turd which had the same issue with the right side head running much cooler than the left side.
This was so obvious that you could clearly feel the difference by putting your hand on the valve covers after coming back from a long run. You couldn't keep it on the left side for more than a couple of seconds but could keep your hand on the right for double the time before it became uncomfortable. The plugs also indicated the right side was running richer.
Some may recall that my bike had the wrong header pipe on the right cylinder which had a catalyst fitted, this messed up the gas flow and obviously impacted the fueling to the right cylinder causing it to run cold.
Topic title: Duh! anybody know about this
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Probably unlikely but it might be worth checking the header pipes just in case, if it happened once it could happen twice.
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Phang
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:47 am

It could be the leaning angle of the bike when park on side stand makes the mayo more likely to stay on the right rocker cover than the left, though both sides generate the same amount of mayo?

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FreshEgg
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:53 am

Pete Roper wrote:
As far as replacing bits goes don't buy the 'C' kit. Buy a 'B' kit and just add the bits you need.

You can easily measure the head gaskets you need when the heads are off. The shims for the inlet valve springs are pennies, as are the inlet and outlet manifold gaskets.

AF-1 in Texas will sell you a 'B' kit for $1050

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Order the gaskets and shims at the same time.

Note to Aussies. If you order the bits through me to do this it will cost you NO MORE than if you buy direct but I get a trade discount from AF-1. It would be nice of my research was rewarded, even by a small amount. There isn't much money in Guzzis but if you don't want to support a 'Stealer'? So be it.
Add in probably another $100-150 for all the other shite, take the heads to a head shop and get the shims installed, (Probably billed out at an hour max.) and you're good to go.

Pete


Pete:

Again, I am most grateful for your assistance.

Is there anyway I can buy from you and have the Kit B drop shipped to me in Seattle? Or is there some prohibition by geography? In my mind I OWE you the business...

As far as the services of a head shop, all I need is a valve spring compressor, no? I may have a generic one lying around somewhere I can repurpose.

Cheers,
JL
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:44 pm

Shipping would kill that issue. Just buy direct from AF1 or Moto, or MPH. I wouldn't think there would be much difference in price.

With the spring compressor? Yup, you're right but you need one small enough for the caps. Also I forgot to mention you'll need to order four valve guide oil seals as well.

Pete
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FreshEgg
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:54 pm

Guys & Dolls: Here is a current pricing update for Kit B with additional bits to reproduce Kit C.

1X  1A002063 KIT TIMING TRANSFORMATION - $1,050.78 EA.              $1,050.78
4X  877847 SHUMMING WASHER - $1.50 EA.                                       $      6.00
4X  436438 VALVE SEAL RING - $0.79 EA.                                           $      3.16
2X  976376 Exhaust Manifold Gasket - $4.20 EA.                                  $      8.40
2X  873879 PACKING BETWEEN HEAD INTAKE FITTING - $7.28 EA.       $    14.56
2X  874621 GASKET - $42.80 EA.                                                        $    85.60
                                                                                                    __________
Sub Total:                                                                                         $1,168.50
Shipping:  $0.00
Tax:  $0.00
Total:                                                                                                $1,168.50

Majority of parts have been ordered from AF1. I was initially informed that the 877847 shimming washers had to be shipped from Italy with a 6-8 week wait and just about had a cow, but I was able to find them locally from Moto Int'l in one phone call. Yeah! (Something has changed for the better at the MI parts counter and I will have to reevaluate my buying habits...).

Also not purchased yet are the 874621 head gaskets, as they need to be measured for thickness versus cylinder squish. I have not pulled the heads yet. (When I asked Misha @ MI, how he measures the gaskets, he said just use the middle of the 3 available thicknesses!)

Being the wanker that I am,  I like to overthink things, and may purchase special tool 020676Y and a dial gauge (about $200 for both) to measure squish.

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Special Tool 020676Y

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Measuring Squish (Photo Courtesy of Phang)

I will also be picking up a small valve spring compressor. ($30 China Special on ebay to $150 from Motion Pro).

Anyway, there you go. Hope this helps in your decision making.

SJ
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:17 pm

Don't worry about the tool. The specifics of gasket measurement are there to reduce emissions of oxides of nitrogen. All the gaskts are also laminated steel and don't crush in any meaningful way meaning that you can measure the ones you take off and then order ones the same thickness but simply going for the mid size is fine. So far ALL the 8V's I've done have used the mid size ex-factory.

Pete
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Phang
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:54 pm

SJ, it depends on how serious is your OCD Very Happy

As Pete said, if you can identify/measure the thickness of the piece that is originally on the bike, it is quite safe by sticking to the original thickness.

Picking the middle one is very logical too, there is 33% chance you hit the bullseye, 33% chance of 0.2mm too thick and 33% of 0.2mm too thin.

I had this dilemma when replacing the clutch plate for my mate's 8V engine (Stelvio), the manual specified a special tool to measure and determine the clutch push rod length but we skipped it and use back the original clutch push rod. According to the feedback from my mate, the clutch works perfectly and has no issue.

Having said that, if I am doing the work on my GRiSO, I will buy the tool  Viva la Fiesta

p/s: Pete, have you got the special tool and rods? I returned them on 5 June 2015.
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FreshEgg
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:30 pm

Pete / Phang:

Thanks for the input. I will try to force myself to measure the existing ones and proceed on that basis.

Funny how you are angry, at first, about the costs, but once the hemorrhaging starts, it gets easy to spend. Especially on tools. I LOVE TOOLS!

Cheers,
SJ
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:49 am

Sorry. Yup, they're back.
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Phang
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:18 am

Thanks Pete Very Happy

SJ, I LOVE tools too. Did I tell you I have the 020676Y too afro

Here's a much cheaper way but I reckon it is as accurate if not better than the factory special tool.

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wardentm
Nibbio
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:25 pm

Back to basics, I love it !!!!!
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FreshEgg
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:43 pm

Thanks, Phang.

It had occurred to me but was worried that the preloading offered by the 020676Y tool was critical to the measurement. Overthinking it, no doubt!

How are your pistons so clean? Or are you in the habit of taking it apart just for a look-see. Very Happy

Keep sharing those photos. It's very helpful.

Cheers,
SJ
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Phang
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:27 pm

SJ, that's not my bike, I steal that photo from the internet Laughing

020676Y is a heavy and sturdy piece of jig, makes a good small coffee table if you flip it over and put a piece of glass on it when not in use.

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wardentm
Nibbio
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:00 pm

The look of this stuff sends shudders thru me, water inside an engine !!!!! Not good.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:10 am

One of the major byproducts of combustion is water. The trick is to keep the oil and engine parts hot enough for it to be expelled.

Pete
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FreshEgg
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Well I finally finished installation of the Roller Tappet Kit, last week.

Thanks Again, to Roper-san, Paul Daytona, etc, etc for the information that made it possible for an amateur to pull it of at

home with some degree of confidence. As the procedure is well documented on this site and wildguzzi.com, I thought i might

share some random observations gleaned during the process and share some pics of the other systems that are related to the

job.

1. Watch out for the little pin on the cam drive at 6 o'clock. Mine fell out of its hole and, just by pure luck, hung up between the

chain tensioner and timing chain on its way down the timing chain tunnel. If you are going to pull the sump, this probably does

not matter, but if you were just doing an inspection it would be a royal pain in the ass.

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2. These 4 head studs ROTATE when unbolting the heads.
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Unfortunately, i did not notice this until i had buttoned up one side and was in the process of dismantling the other.I spazzed

out, hunted down a fancy stud installation tool kit by Matco Tools and ordered it for something like $110 USD.

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But i ran out of patience within a couple of hours and did the job with a couple of Grade 10-M12 nuts.  I found that it takes

about 270 degrees of rotation to bottom out each stud on assembly. There aren't a lot of threads there and i was nervous but it

worked out. Subsequently I also found that Motion Pro makes a stud installation tool set for $30 USD. Oh well...


3. On the other hand, a really good buy was a generic, china-made valve compressor tool off EBay. They go from $15 to $50. The screw action is tedious but, for the home mechanic, it worked like a charm.

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4. I found my crankcase ventilation system an utter mess.

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Most of the joints at the ventbox were leaking - creating a helluva film between the V of the engine - and it was full of

mayonnaise. Its tucked in beneath the tank and behind the steering head, so it does not get much attention, but I suspect that

this may be one of the sources of moisture in the engine. The oil return line that connects to the back of the sump was plugged

with mayo, which means that oily vapor had only one place to go...

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The intake manifold. As you might expect, the intake valves were well crusted. But a toothbrush and a can of brake cleaner took

care of things pretty quickly.

5. Another of my sins was a very dirty air filter. Worse, it was one of the BMC oiled fabric jobs. NOT the type of filter you want

to have clods of dirt falling out off upon inspection. When i dropped the sump i found the inside of my motor very dirty, even

though the oil itself was not so bad. It was like a film that clung to every internal surface. A 15 minute flush with new oil &

filter seemed to get a lot of crap out. What was clear, light, golden oil came out black as pictured below. I assume it was

assembly lube, DLC particles and plain old dirt. Hopefully i haven't trashed the rings (or worse!) and created excessive blowby. I

am running the stock filter now.
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tocino
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PostSubject: Re: The Look of Mayonnaise   Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:29 am

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