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 Which Martris ??

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Chronic
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Which Martris ??   Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:10 pm

In the near future I'll be looking to upgrade the suspension.   It looks as though there are 3 options.......going from expensive, to REAL expensive.  I've always been the sort of nut that always got the so-called "best" one and, then, never really used all the capability of the thing, (calculators, cameras, lap-top, etc)  With early retirement looming, i'm trying to be a bit smarter about things.... although, not smart enough to actually forego the upgrade expense, eh? Wink

So, it's  "KE"  vs. "KE-Hydro" vs.  "R"  models and significant increase in cost for each "better" version.   The question for those that may know the difference,  is it really worth spending the extra scratch??  I'm not doing any more track days, AND, I'm not going to mash it hard in the in the twisties any more ( well, not as hard as I used to, anyway) I do hope to ride in a very spirited way for a few more years.  I do now and will always live near and ride mountain roads which comprises a good 80% of my miles (yes, I am fortunate!!)  Pretty much NEVER will ride with a pillion (wife rides own MC) and will most likely not use it for hard core sport-touring (i.e.- no heavy loads)

So that said, will the standard KE version really be good enough??   Or for that matter, what about a Penske??
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:26 pm

Wayne will be along shortly to tell you to get the R version.

I've got the base K version and I'm more than happy with it. I only ride solo and once it's set to your liking, it's set and forget. My 2 cents.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:35 pm

Just as a point of refference I have, from memory, the 'R' and its main difference is its spring adjuster. Since they tend to use too heavy a spring mine is permanently wound almost fully off. Also, unless you tend to carry a pillion or other heavy load often then usually, once you have found your optimum settings, you probably won't adjust the shock much. I know I haven't changed much in a considerable time. Likewise I've abandoned the thought of upgrading to Ohlins forks. Why? Because at the end of the day I don't need them. I am acutely aware that my senses and reactions aren't anywhere near as sharp as they used to be and no amount of technology will make up for that. I'm still considering the Matris fork upgrade but in all honesty I don't think I need it. The way my stock Showas are now valved and oiled makes them much better than they were originally. I'm also seriously considering whether I need to upgrade to a radial master cylinder for the front brakes. Changing to HH pads has improved the braking as much as I'm likely to need now I've accepted I have to be 'Gentler' than I have in the past.

The biggest advantage of getting the suspension sorted for me is now one of comfort rather than handling per-se. While I won't put up with something that handles like a fridge recent visits to the Doc have confirmed that I have degenerative osteoarthritis in most of my joints and, unfortunately, that isn't going to get any better. A lifetime of working on the tools is finally catching up with me! Such is life, and mine has been so lucky and blessed I can't complain! But it does mean that I have to be far more conservative in what I not only do but think I can do. It really is dreadfully boring. One silver lining though is I will no longer need to throw money at my bike and I'll enjoy it as it is for as long as I can still ride!

Short answer? Go with the cheaper option.

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:44 pm

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. When you order it, specify your weight at about 90% actual.
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:57 pm

Hey, nobody had posted when I started typing this .......................

If you've had top class suspension before you will be disappointed with anything less.
If this is the first suspension upgrade you've ever done, stage one will be great and you will never know what you are missing out on.

1. Go top of the range, minus the hydraulic pre-load adjuster. Once set you will never need to adjust it.
2. Tell Matris you need compliant suspension for rough roads at legal speeds.
3. Tell them you ride solo and slow. (As in don't overestimate your ability or weight)
4. Ask for the biggest 'shock shaft jet' (3.5mm)

Reason for the above, they design their shocks for WSBK use, they love stiff springs that are set with lots of pre-load on assembly. Big jet allows oil to move faster for more compliance, then trim the action with the "clickers".

Next, get your head around high speed and low speed compression damping, those speeds relate to how fast the shock itself moves, not the Autobahn in Germany. These two damping circuits work in conjunction with each other on every bump, as the rate of compression slows it phases from hi to lo.

Wind the ride height adjuster out to its max. Should give you close to 330mm eye-to-eye.
Not only will you get a higher rear ride height (meaning less rake & trail for better turn in and ground clearance), you get much better compliance. The rear rocker ratio ranges from 2.6:1 fully topped out to around 2.1:1 bottomed out. The extra 8mm shock length increases ride height by about 24mm via rotating the rockers 3 pivot points thru their different arcs, meaning at top out the ratio is now 3:1. That equals more initial compliance.
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Chronic
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:07 pm

Some damn good responses.... and quick, too cheers .   Although, Wayne's got my head spinning a bit!!  (but, i'll certainly keep the tips for reference when I do the deed) I have not had "top class" suspension, but, I did upgrade my Speed Triple a few years back to Ohlins front and back (not top of line) and man-o-man did it make things seem smoother in the rougher, uneven mountain roads.  It really took away the drama from mid-corner bumps & swells and such......... which is what I'm hoping for with this upgrade.

"set and forget" seems perfect for me.  It sure sounds like the base K version will be just fine.


Thanks for the tips, guys.


ps- sure sorry to hear about the osteoarthritis, Pete.
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:14 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />

A = Rocker mount to swingarm
B = Rocker mount to link rod
C = Rocker mount to shock absorber
D = Link rod mount to chassis
Swingarm pivot is out of shot, about 120 mm above 'D'

As you look at this photo, my Matris R shock is 330 mm eye-to-eye.
The bolt at 'C' would have been obscured by the link rod with my original Bellagio shock measuring 311 mm long.

Firstly, all points A,B,C & D are now higher above the ground with the longer shock, and I have a greater swingarm angle in relation to the ground.
Because the rocker point 'C' is now rotated further downward in relation to point 'B', it swings in a slightly different arc from original. I measured my Bellagio in stock form, its rocker ratio starts at 2.6:1, meaning 1mm of shock travel = 2.6mm of rear axle travel. The "rising rate" aspect of this suspension geometry means by the time full compression is reached the ratio has dropped to 2.1:1, meaning for 1mm shock = 2.1mm of rear axle travel. This gives the suspension a progressive feel, it gets firmer as the wheel travels further.

However, I achieved my longer shock length thru internal mods to also gain extra shock shaft travel, equaling more rear wheel travel. Bellagio's advertised wheel travel of 120mm is BULLSHIT, it's less than 90mm. I got it back up to about 110-115.
If you use the external "ride height" adjuster (silver and black nuts just visible above the link rod)  to get 330 mm shock length, I would suggest your rocker ratio would then operate from approx 3:1 down to 2.5:1. The upshot of this adjustment, if your supplied spring is a little too hard it will magically feel softer with out any pre-load reduction.

The full ride height adjustment will also reduce your rake by approx one full degree.
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:53 pm

Hey Chronic, seeing you live stateside I would consider talking to Penske and take particular notice of their shock shaft travel. Both original Sachs and Matris is not particularly long, and the latter is predominately developed for race track use where the road is smooth and the bumps are small, hence they do not require (or desire) much movement.
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tocino
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:31 am

I emailed Penske after not seeing the GRiSO on their application charts, here's their response:

Quote :
We do have a shock for the GRiSO. It is a PS-8983PB, meaning it is a double adjustable piggyback shock. Sells for $1195.00. We also offer a PS-8987PB, triple adjustable(low & high compression) piggyback shocks. Sells for $1395.00. The differences between the 2 are in the comp adjuster. 8983 is a low speed adjust, 8987 is a low & high speed adjust. Just more fine tuning.

Looking at the Matris K on the AF1, it seems comparable to the Penske 8983; so a 200$US difference in favor of Matris. After some googling, the R seems to be about 600 or 700 more than the K, so price of R vs 8987 would favor the Penske if going high+low speed adjustability.
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Chronic
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:54 pm

ghezzi wrote:
Hey Chronic, seeing you live stateside I would consider talking to Penske and take particular notice of their shock shaft travel. Both original Sachs and Matris is not particularly long, and the latter is predominately developed for race track use where the road is smooth and the bumps are small, hence they do not require (or desire) much movement.

Well, actually, that's why I sort of off-handedly threw out the Penske option on the Orig post.  I think I may have read that it may be more better for rough roads........ like we have here in California.  A lot of good roads in the Sierra Nevada mountains can get "goaty" at times and not the smoothest generally.  Your understanding of the longer shock travel on the Penske confirms that , eh?

Since, mountain riding is most what I'll be doing, smoothing things out is a big goal.
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Chronic
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:18 pm

tocino wrote:
I emailed Penske after not seeing the GRiSO on their application charts, here's their response:

Quote :
We do have a shock for the GRiSO. It is a PS-8983PB, meaning it is a double adjustable piggyback shock. Sells for $1195.00. We also offer a PS-8987PB, triple adjustable(low & high compression) piggyback shocks. Sells for $1395.00. The differences between the 2 are in the comp adjuster. 8983 is a low speed adjust, 8987 is a low & high speed adjust. Just more fine tuning.

Looking at the Matris K on the AF1, it seems comparable to the Penske 8983; so a 200$US difference in favor of Matris. After some googling, the R seems to be about 600 or 700 more than the K, so price of R vs 8987 would favor the Penske if going high+low speed adjustability.
.


I just snooped around, too and found this bit of detail on the two.  Dang, this stuff is pricey!!  Good thing I have some Mad-Money stashed away Very Happy .  But shoot,  all that adjustability on the 8987 would prolly go unused with me, but, damned if I'm not attracted to it anyway.

There also is a cheaper option with a remote reservoir for $925  (an 8983 version)



*******************************************************************************






Penske Racing Monoshocks – 8983PB


$1,195.00
   

Penske’s Monoshock 8983 or 8987 without the Remote Reservoir.

Fits the GRiSO and Stelvio. Will *not* fit the Breva/Norge/Sport series; Use the 8983 Remote Res.

The 8983 Series – $1195 + shipping.

Double adjustable shock absorber offers more adjustability over a wide range to the serious rider or racer. From street riding to road racing, the 8983 is guaranteed to improve your bikes handling. All Penske shocks are custom built to order, and typically take 3~4 weeks until ready to ship.

The 8987 Series triple adjustable shock absorber – $1395 + shipping (contact us to order)

This shock (not shown) has been the benchmark for years in motorcycle racing. It adds: 25 clicks of low speed adjustment, 17 clicks of high speed adjustment to provide the ability to fine tune your suspension for all track surfaces and conditions.

Please Allow 3-4 weeks for delivery, custom built to order ONLY.

ALL CUSTOM BUILT-TO-ORDER Shocks subject to a 10% restock fee if cancelled after built and shipped from the Manufacturer.

Features:
•Ride height and preload adjustable
•16 – 20 clicks of compression adjustment
•36 clicks of rebound adjustment
•High quality spring included, matched to your weight
•Owner rebuildable.
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jeremyb
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:13 pm

I'm going to make a different (and maybe controversial) suggestion: contact He-who-shall-not-be-named: Todd Eagan at GuzziTech.
I know he's  a dealer, so there's a commercial incentive, but he's pretty clued-up on Guzzi suspension, can get almost anything (Penske, Matris, Mupo) and (most important of all), he's probably pretty close to you so he understands your roads better than we do.

I got a standard Matris (KE) shock, and the Matris 'R' fork inserts from him about 6 months ago. He was very helpful with advice, non-pushy and really helpful with installation support afterwards. I think his price for the shock was about $50 less than AF1 too.

I was happy dealing with him: dealing with the vague Matris instructions - not so much...
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Chronic
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:26 pm

jeremyb wrote:
I'm going to make a different (and maybe controversial) suggestion: contact He-who-shall-not-be-named: Todd Eagan at GuzziTech.
I know he's  a dealer...

Hahahaha!!!  Hey, I know Todd and have had dealings with him in the past (and recently) and really have nothing bad to say.  And that's a great point u make since he is Hella street rider>  ( and, heck, Best track day instructor I've ridden with. )  I am totally into supporting any and all Guzzi dealers & such.  I don't know yet if I'll transact this purchase with him ,but, maybe. However,  I do have other folks I'd like to support, too.  That said, I do want to get the correct set-up for me and sure appreciate the feedback I've gotten from this site.  Great and helpful dudes here.
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tocino
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:04 pm

This just arrived (Christmas in August! / Happy Birthday to me!).

Penske 8987: 12mm longer than stock, set up for my weight / street riding, high+low speed compression adjustable.

I hope to install it tonight. I'll let you know how it compares to the stocker.

Anyone have tips on shock swap? Like, what will I have to remove to get it in there, what should I watch out for, etc?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:11 pm

Roper did a post somewhere, you may have to remove the air box for easy access although it can be done without touching it. It was described as a right royal front bottom of a job ...........................
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odder
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:53 pm

Changed mine by removing the CARC, had bearing lube on the to-do list anyway. topside, there's a lot of little stuff to take out.

Have the Matris with spring adjust, which I haven't really touched since install. Sprung accurate to weight so it's a tough spring but works good when riding spirited. The Showa fork can get close to or-as-good ohlins when set for you
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tocino
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:23 pm

ghezzi wrote:
Roper did a post somewhere, you may have to remove the air box for easy access although it can be done without touching it. It was described as a right royal front bottom of a job ...........................

Thanks. I did find this post: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I tried to remove it with the airbox in there but it just seems there's no way. I *did* leave the rear wheel on since it seems the swingarm is as far down as it'll go (seems to be in contact with part of the frame).

I started to do that and got interrupted by take-cat-to-emergency-vet false alarm. >3 hours + $$$ to find out cat's OK. Luckily not my money. Sadly my time though.
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WCB
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:28 am

Also (at least State-side) you can contact Racetech (who basically taught everyone here in the States about suspensions) and they can take your factory Sachs shock and revalve it and respring it to your specifications for a fraction of the cost of a new shock.

They will also build new dampers for the forks.
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:22 am

WCB wrote:
Also (at least State-side) you can contact Racetech (who basically taught everyone here in the States about suspensions) and they can take your factory Sachs shock and revalve it and respring it to your specifications for a fraction of the cost of a new shock.

Been there, done that. Total waste of time and money. Yes there were improvements but the cost/ride quality ratio is very poor compared to a proper damping unit.
Just my 2 bobs worth.
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:18 am

Interesting. You used Race Tech?
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:31 pm

Not directly. But internal damping mods were made by Scotty Heyes, a local susp tech who generally gets paid according to his clients finishing position. (No! Not missionary)
Internal design of our standard Sachs is such that mods are limited, needles are a blunt end design, compression adjuster is on a thread, as in no clicker and moving it a cunt hair goes from too soft to too hard. Overall the Sachs suffers from hydraulic lock, as in it can't flow oil fast enough to be effectively controlled.

By comparison, when he opened up the Matris he said, "If you ever go racing keep this shock and throw away ya bike". The internal circuitry is such that every aspect of the unit can be easily modified to achieve whatever you need. I could have spent a lot more money on the Sachs having it modified to accept Ohlin components, or modifying the new components to fit the Sachs, but like I said, WOFTAM.

I used to own a Ducati Hypermotard 1100S, 50mm Marzocchi forks and Ohlin shock, it was set up so hard from stock it would tank slap on the smallest bump at 60kph. Standard practice was to lower the rear and add a steering damper, both bandaids in my opinion. With modified internals, I raised the rear and had no steering damper. That bike totally ruined me for ease of turn in, psychotic cornering speeds and comfort/compliance on rough roads. Its a shame the engine was the wrong way round and it had a chain thingy, would have saved me spending 10k+ on Bella's wheels and suspension.

Note: I was at the susp techs workshop the other day when another customer my age dropped in, he recognized me from a group ride we did together over 8 years ago. I have no recollection but according to Neil we fucked off from the rest of the group, through a section of corners he just gave up chasing, the Ducati was ballistic. Scotty told me later that Neil is an ex super bike racer from the days of Bathurst and the Castrol 6 hour etc. This is not about my ability, but if you have a serious weapon any numpty can pull the trigger. With proper compliance/bump control there is no fighting the bike and hanging on for dear life, you just keep riding with the throttle open while others are baking off/slowing down or even braking. So of course I rode off into the distance.

Back again, best explanation I can muster:
Remember when you discovered masturbation, it was good right? Then after your first proper root masturbation didn't feel as good.
You keep ya Sachs while I enjoy real sex, Ok?
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WCB
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:34 pm

Well I was asking if you used Race Tech as I'm interested with regards to my Stelvio and I've heard terrific things about them. Interesting comment though regarding the Sachs.

I have different requirements, more for off road performance rather than tearing it up on the street. I didn't find the Sachs all that terrible as an all around shock but there are definitely improvents I would make if possible. At 60,000+ miles now, it's pretty knackered and I need to make a decision soon.
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keenerkeen07
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:35 pm

WCB wrote:
Well I was asking if you used Race Tech as I'm interested with regards to my Stelvio and I've heard terrific things about them. Interesting comment though regarding the Sachs.

I have different requirements, more for off road performance rather than tearing it up on the street. I didn't find the Sachs all that terrible as an all around shock but there are definitely improvents I would make if possible. At 60,000+ miles now, it's pretty knackered and I need to make a decision soon.



i get what ghezzi  is saying and should add i realized the same with going to the Matris , only difference being i bolted it up set it up myself and adjusted a bit then life was so much better with the GRiSO..
I have done the same with other bikes and for me suspension is the first thing you do , either by adjustment if your lucky or replacement..
my Multistrada S was strange in the corners until the Ohlins were set up proper , not unlike ghezzis Hypermotard ..the difference made the bike so much better it became a different motorcycle ..
60 K is a long way on any shock , you will definitely appreciate the change to quality in suspension with good set up.. on road/off road anyroad...
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:58 pm

Everything in life is a compromise. Most modified OEM suspension units these days will have Race Tech gold valves/shim stacks etc installed as these guys set the standard a long time ago. Anything they do will be a definite improvement over the stock shock, and the difference you will feel from your knackered high mileage unit will be even greater.

Money has the greatest influence upon most peoples choices, especially if the petticoat government is involved. I have a party for one, no opposition. Very Happy. Many have said that multi adjustments are WOFTAM as you find a setting and leave it. I think my Matris might have 12,000 possible damping combinations, about 10 of those are in the ball park. After Scott set it up where he thought it should be, it took about six months for me to get my head around hi-speed/lo-speed compression and find the setting that suits me.

It just goes to show, Scott and I are similar weight, but he is an ex-superbike competitor, but we sit on the bike differently, ride differently, our requirements of the suspension action are different and therefore my settings are totally different to his recommendations. He doesn't bother riding my bike anymore, he will alter internals according to my description of how the bike has been behaving, then leave it to me to ride and adjust the clickers. It's been a great learning experience.

Tocino just bought a Penske, great move as it has all the necessary adjustments to dial it in to HIS taste. Lets wait and see how he feels going that extra step.

While I have gone way off the scale with insane mods to Bella, it has never been about building a race bike or World's Fastest Guzzi. My aim was to build a sweet ride, that's all. In stock form riding 150km on our shit roads and I was worn out, stuffed. In racing they say smoother is faster, well as a consequence of making Bella smooth on the bumps I can now ride all day and still be fresh and alert. That makes it SAFER! Also as I mentioned earlier, I just stay on the throttle maintaining speed thru the corners SMOOTHLY, that previously had Bella kicking and bucking like a prize bull at the rodeo, I'm not kidding. Feet off the pegs, arse out the saddle and eye balls bouncing so hard inside my helmet, I couldn't see the fuck where I was going. As for the bike, hippy hippy shake shake. Now others deal with that scenario while I ride away smoothly, and smiley. cheers
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Which Martris ??   Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:43 pm

You know, all of you guys are confusing my little French peanut here...
I kinda agree with Wayne about a different rider will get a different feel on the same bike etc... but is the stock unit really that bad?
I take my bike to the race track once in a while and I can dish it out pretty good with some more advanced bikes.
My disadvantage is always the weight of the GRiSO rather than its suspension and not having clip ons during hard core riding but I manage...
I myself weight 165lbs and I don't know how many kilos is that but I ain't a heavy dude by any means so I have that going for me in that context.
I still think that somehow, a well tuned stock suspension matched to an experience rider is mighty fine on the street.
I ride with a lot of experienced fast guys on the weekends and while it's more work for me to stay with them compared to the ZX1000, Tuono V4, RC51 and other fast bike riders, I'm right there with them.
They shake their head but can't shake me. lol
Although Florida is pretty straight and boring, those guys know just about every country side roads that have a few curves and I'd never guess they were there. But it's two lane roads in the middle of nowhere so you'd better not fuck up or break down.
Anyway, my experience so far on the GRiSO is a blast and I'm having a really hard time riding in a conservative way. Twisted Evil
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