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 Mistral/Beetle map review

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fishbulb
Carlotto
Carlotto


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Join date : 2014-03-19

PostSubject: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:49 pm

Hey Gents,
I sprung for the Mistral high pipe to cheer myself up from being laid off from work and wanted to pass on my thoughts.   I wasn't crazy about the looks of the high pipe at first.  At least compared to pics of other cans I've seen posted.  And I like the looks of the stocker well enough.  What got me thinking was handling the stock can when I did the swingarm bearing lube, how heavy it is.  I didn't want to get a different exhaust not knowing what I was getting into fuel map wise so naturally I asked Mark.  He (and Pete) give the Mistral high marks for performance and he had a map developed for it.  That settled it.  It just arrived and here is what I found.

Removing the stock can and installing the Mistral was so easy, it needs no explanation.
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Fire up Guzzi Diag and install the map Mark kindly sent me.  Reset the TPS and Learned Parameters.
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Anyone melt their turn signal with this pipe?  I'm going to slap a piece of aluminum tape over the underside of the blinker to deflect the radiant heat.  Hope it works.
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Looks good I think.  Makes the bike look more trim and shaved 10 lbs off the weight.
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I've only had one ride since installation so I need more seat time to get a better feel for the difference but I can tell you that it feels like the bike perks up everywhere in rev range and is not too loud.  Quieter than the Remus I put on my BMW Rockster. Mark's map works superb.  I'll report back after more miles.
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Cheers,
Tod
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:30 pm

Excellent! Don't forget that for optimum results the tune must be spot on. Valves at 6 & 8 thou, TB's balanced correctly. TPS re-set after balance.

Pete

PS. I found my bike improved further, not greatly but noticeably, after I'd ditched the airbox snorkel on Mar's advice.


Last edited by Pete Roper on Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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beetle
GRiSO
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:41 pm

Looks good Tod!


Your blinky will only melt a little bit if it touches the pipe. Razz
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AOAM
Tanabuso
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Join date : 2015-05-11

PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:39 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Excellent! Don't forget that for optimum results the tune must be spot on. Valves at 6 & 8 thou, TB's balanced correctly. TPS re-set after balance.

Pete

PS. I found my bike improved further, not greatly but noticeably, after I'd ditched the airbox snorkel on Mar's advice.

Thanks for this review. In the next few weeks I plan to do the same. Have everything prepared and purchased, just waiting to rack up the miles. I put 400+ miles on her last Sunday:D .

For Pete or Beetle:

I am going to ask an admittedly dumb question ... about tune up order.

I've checked my valves (for kicks really, but will do again just before loading the map). Should I or would I need to balance the throttle bodies again after installing the map? In my mind it stands to reason that the map will change the relevant factors and as such would necessitate a re-balance. But, most of the instruction here talks about proper tune before loading the map. Does it really matter?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:53 pm

Nope. The pump works the same way no matter what it's pumping!

If the TB's are balanced properly then they shouldn't need looking at UNLESS you adjust the valve. Changing the valve clearances DOES alter the cam timing and therefore the way the engine pumps and as we know the 8V is very sensitive to change.

If you've already checked the valves and then done a balance? You're good to go. Stick the pipe on, re-map, re-set TPS and self learners. Go for ride. Bust face grinning!

Pete
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AOAM
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:00 pm

Thanks Pete. Will install the Pipe the next time I'm at home. I'm grinning with it now - so you can imagine the anticipation.
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fishbulb
Carlotto
Carlotto


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Join date : 2014-03-19

PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:55 pm

Second ride and all is not well. Fit, finish, ease of installation, and power all still good upon further review but the throttle response off a closed throttle is like a light switch. A step back from Mark's map for the stock can. Now I don't know if the Guzzi spec's vary from country to country or the effects of fuels from different countries, so someone else may have different results, but my bike lurches opening the throttle from closed. A real pain going through traffic where you have to come off and on the throttle. My bike has a fresh tune-up (done by me) so valve lash and throttle body sync are good I believe. I wish I knew how some bikes have this spot on and others are just not (like my Centauro).

tod

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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:56 pm

try adjusting the slack out of your throttle cables - this greatly affects low speed snatchiness...
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:59 pm

Well it shouldn't be. Both the dBk and no-dbk maps for the Mistral Hi-Pipe are highly developed and are being used on numerous bikes in numerous countries. If yours is playing up there's something else up.

It's not running on one at idle is it? And the. As soon as you crack the throttle the other pit chimes in?

When you installed the new map you did reset the TPS and self learning parameters? Tappets at 6 & 8 thou? TB's balanced and TPS re-set afterwards?

I know I harp on about this but so far every single bike that we've had where people are saying 'The Map's Fucked Me Bike!' It turns out there is an underlying tune or mechanical issue.

Let's walk through what you've done and checked and see if we can fix it?

Pete
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:24 pm

If you did the valves first check point is the plug caps. Are they arcing?

Pete
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fishbulb
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:46 am

Pete Roper wrote:
If you did the valves first check point is the plug caps. Are they arcing?

Pete

Thanks for all the replies.

I have zero slop in the throttle cable, I adjust it this way on all my bikes

I did reset the TPS and Learned Parameters after map install

I've been adjusting valves for 40 years so I'm confident I got that right (doesn't mean I think I can't screw up)

I did sync the throttle bodies after the valve adjust with the mercury type manometer.  I will warm the bike up this morning and check/repeat this.  The thing I've always found when doing this is that you can adjust at a steady 4K RPM then drop down to a steady 3K RPM and find the column height is not the same.  So it's like you pick your RPM.

The idle is fine and I will check the plug caps.  I figured out the zip tie method of cap removal early on so I don't think they have been abused.

I guess what bothers me is nothing else was changed besides the can and the map.  The response off a closed throttle was not perfect with the stock can and Mark's map but I could ride around it. If I hadn't owned bikes that had this damn near perfect I could believe that fuel injection just has this problem but you just could not get my 675 Daytona to misbehave no matter how ham fisted you were.

I'll recheck things and report back.  Again, thanks for the help.

tod
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voulga77
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:42 am

What about CO?
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sidrat
Sfregiato
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:26 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Tappets at 6 & 8 thou?

Pete

Got a service 6250 miles from my local Guzzi store and said that the new information from the factory is now .1mm and .15mm which i guess is 4 and 6 thou, have you heard about this pete?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:34 am

As far as I know specs remain at six and eight but this is relevant in the case of bikes with Mark's maps which are built for these clearances.

Really the only reason the factory might change the spec would be for noise purposes and I'd rather put up with a bit more top end noise than risk burning a valve. There have been no mapping changes. If there was anything significantly different in the camming that might require different clearances it would also require a new map, even if running closed loop. No new map? No change in spec in my book.

Pete
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fishbulb
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:57 pm

Well I reloaded the map (maybe I loaded the No dBk by mistake) and reset the TPS and Learned Parameters.

I warmed up the bike and checked/adjusted the throttle body sync as per Pete's thread on this forum then reset the TPS and Learned Parameters again.  The sync at idle was good as it was but again, kind of a crap shoot from 3K to 4K RPMs.  That is, the mercury column height was different at different RPMs within that range.  I adjusted the bell crank a little, did the reset again, and rejiggered the air bypass screws again.  

Will take her for a ride when the weather lets me.  Didn't seem I found anything out of whack.  Idle seems very normal.  Wish I had read the map that was in there before I re-wrote it.  We'll see if anything changes.


tod
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Charlie J
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:27 pm

Fishbulb, how would you rate the GRiSO against your Rockster? I had an orange one.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:45 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with your tune Tod. You may recall I spent a fair bit of time tweaking the throttle correction with your help? The Mistral map has the same throttle correction values. The big difference here is the torque. The 547D map has loads more torque than the 294C. I mean a lot. Front wheel lifting torque.

You may need to modify your right hand. Very Happy
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:23 pm

I went over to North Canberra the other day to deliver an oil pressure switch and while I was there I checked out the blokes bike a bit and told him to take mine for a ride. One of the things he commented on was how much grunt it had just off idle. I'm obviously used to it as I just think it's *Normal*.

Can't remember which map I have in. I think it's the latest one? I suppose I should check Rolling Eyes

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:20 pm

Should be. I've not updated the Mistral maps. There is only the two.
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fishbulb
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:52 pm

Well I got a test ride in between a few light showers.  Whatever I did seemed to fix things.  The throttle response is back to on par with the stock can and Mark's map.  Pilot error I'd have to say.  Maybe I did put the wrong map in although I did move the bell housing adjustment a quarter turn.

About the sync adjustment.  I've used these Motion Pro mercury sticks for decades but maybe something else is better.  They seem to work because when you look at idle, the mercury column height is steady and repeatable.  Not so the 4K RPM reading.  I've seen air bubbles in the mercury column at times and wonder how much error they caused.  If anyone has had consistent results with any type of manometer, please let me know.  Thanks for the help and I'd say I'm pleased with this set up.

tod
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:17 pm

I'm a fan of the Morgan Carbtune. Comes in 2 and 4 cylinder versions.
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fishbulb
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:38 am

Charlie J wrote:
Fishbulb, how would you rate the GRiSO against your Rockster? I had an orange one.

Good question that I have thought about much since I made a bargain with myself to sell my Dayton 675 and Rockster to buy the GRiSO.  Done with trackdays so the Daytona is gone but the Rockster hasn't sold yet.  I keep going back and forth about keeping it because it is a lot like the GRiSO (size, weight, mission, etc.) but rides different.  The GRiSO delivers more power and in a more entertaining way and of course the  looks are killer.  BUT if I was taking a ride with some fast friends on a twisty road, I could go faster on the Rockster.  It just has a very balanced feel to it.  Brakes, chassis, suspension, just very easy to ride which means you have more attention available for the road.  Maybe the green color puts people off. It wasn't their most popular model but I've always like the look of the boxer.  Like the GRiSO, you get a good look at the engine.
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I took off the center stand and did a track day on it once (before I learned to hang off)  The tech inspectors didn't know what to make of it.  Had fun.
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Cheers,
tod
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:40 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
As far as I know specs remain at six and eight but this is relevant in the case of bikes with Mark's maps which are built for these clearances.

Really the only reason the factory might change the spec would be for noise purposes and I'd rather put up with a bit more top end noise than risk burning a valve. There have been no mapping changes. If there was anything significantly different in the camming that might require different clearances it would also require a new map, even if running closed loop. No new map? No change in spec in my book.

Pete

Thanks Pete, they did say they installed a new map but i assumed this was because mine was still the original 2009 version. i will run guzzi diag and see what has been loaded.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:21 pm

Any feedback on this? Only map they could load with PADS or Navi would be the 68S which is an improvement over the GRS8V-01 but Mark can and has done much better.

Pete
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Scot p
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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:03 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Excellent! Don't forget that for optimum results the tune must be spot on. Valves at 6 & 8 thou, TB's balanced correctly. TPS re-set after balance.

Pete

PS. I found my bike improved further, not greatly but noticeably, after I'd ditched the airbox snorkel on Mar's advice.

Hi Pete, Just reading your valve check/adjust procedure and its telling people "0.1 inlet and 0.15 exhaust is the go, or 4 and 6" maybe be worth getting it updated...

cya,
Scot.

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PostSubject: Re: Mistral/Beetle map review   Today at 5:55 pm

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