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 Canister-ectomy

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NorthBayGriso
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PostSubject: Canister-ectomy   Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:34 pm

Any one have a step-by-step write-up on how to get rid of the charcoal-filled fuel evaporation canister on an 8V?

One with pics, for those of us in California, would be even better.  Laughing 
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Uzidzit
Tiradritto
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:06 pm

read this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

you will need a shorter 8mm bolt for the rear cannister mount when you take the holder off, or just remove the cannister and use the box for your stash....I think I used a m8 20 or 25mm long cap screw

I have one bike plugged and one bike with the vac ports connected and other than the sync being a bit easier with the connected bike there is no running difference. It has eliminated the hot start issue I had and the tip over valve honk, it helped the idle even out on the stelvio did nothing for the GRiSO idle. The can should not do anything but they do fill up with gas over time and do feed back carbon dust/sludge into the intake over time. it should be a passive system and not hurt anything...but my experience has been that the system is too small and simple on a bike to work well
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:16 pm

I had Moto Int'l do the cannisterectomy for me at first service.  They plugged the lines.  In my case, this results in a predictable vacuum that develops in the fuel tank after a ride.  If I don't burp the tank after I park then the fuel pump (or maybe the stepper motor) will cycle intermittently until the vacuum has balanced with the atmosphere.

I haven't bothered with a more sensible fix.  Anybody else experience this?

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
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NorthBayGriso
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:50 pm

Let me see if I'm getting this correctly.  Bear with me here - I work on info systems, not bikes, for a living.   Cool 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

* From the above image, hose #7 is a vacuum hose, correct?
* Hose #11 is also a vacuum hose, correct?
* Hose #6 can be pressurized by fumes coming off the fuel tank; flow pressure and direction in this hose is determined by the pressure differential between the fuel tank and atmospheric pressure...correct?

So, hoses #7 and #11 could:

*  be individually capped, or
*  be combined with a T-fitting then capped, or
*  be combined with a T-fitting then vented to atmosphere at the base of the frame, where the other hoses terminate

...correct?  I think I'll cap these two hoses, but I'll do whichever option is better.

Hose #6 gets vented to atmosphere at the base of the frame too, correct?

Given that #10 is the tip-over [2-way?] valve, can it too can come off?  One poster in the above link indicated that the removal of this valve caused fuel to leak out, which wouldn't make my wife or landlord too happy.

Can't wait for the weekend!   cheers
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Uzidzit
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:16 am

Steak wrote:
I had Moto Int'l do the cannisterectomy for me at first service.  They plugged the lines.  In my case, this results in a predictable vacuum that develops in the fuel tank after a ride.  If I don't burp the tank after I park then the fuel pump (or maybe the stepper motor) will cycle intermittently until the vacuum has balanced with the atmosphere.

I haven't bothered with a more sensible fix.  Anybody else experience this?

did they leave the tip over valve in or remove it?

This sounds very very much wrong it is common fo the vent line to get pinched under the tank, your overflow from around the tank filler should be open and go to the bottom of the bike, and the over flow in the tank will also be vented to atm....I removed the tip over valve it sounds like the tip over valve in in upside down or malfunctioning if you do not have a line pinched. you should never have vacuum or pressure in the tank after this mod
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Uzidzit
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:04 pm

NorthBayGriso wrote:
Let me see if I'm getting this correctly.  Bear with me here - I work on info systems, not bikes, for a living.   Cool 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

* From the above image, hose #7 is a vacuum hose, correct?
* Hose #11 is also a vacuum hose, correct?
* Hose #6 can be pressurized by fumes coming off the fuel tank; flow pressure and direction in this hose is determined by the pressure differential between the fuel tank and atmospheric pressure...correct?

So, hoses #7 and #11 could:

*  be individually capped, or
*  be combined with a T-fitting then capped, or
*  be combined with a T-fitting then vented to atmosphere at the base of the frame, where the other hoses terminate

...correct?  I think I'll cap these two hoses, but I'll do whichever option is better.

Hose #6 gets vented to atmosphere at the base of the frame too, correct?

Given that #10 is the tip-over [2-way?] valve, can it too can come off?  One poster in the above link indicated that the removal of this valve caused fuel to leak out, which wouldn't make my wife or landlord too happy.

Can't wait for the weekend!   cheers

ok sorry for the late reply

there are 2 vent lines to the tank one from the cap ring this sheds water when it rains  this one is left untouched.

the vent line is number 6 in the drawing it goes to the blue and orange tip over valve

pull the tip over valve out and put a barb in the hose from the tank, and extend with a piece of hose down to the bottom of the bike where the charcoal can is now

the two banjo fittings on the throttle body can stay... just pull the T fitting #8 out from between them and connect the hoses together with a brass hose barb

now remove everything else and pile in the spare parts box

with the tip over valve out of the system totally the bike will not chirp or fart anymore when you stop riding it

you can leave the tip over valve in the line if you plan on leaving the GRiSO laying on its side a lot  it will keep fuel from leaking out of the overflow slowly... when you crash up side down with a full tank and are pinned under the thing... there may be a small drip of gas from the vent line.

NOW RE_SYNC and set the TPS

if there is ever any pressure, or vacuum in the tank after this is done ya screwed it up or have a pinched vent line
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NorthBayGriso
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:20 pm

Uzidzit wrote:
you can leave the tip over valve in the line if you plan on leaving the GRiSO laying on its side a lot  it will keep fuel from leaking out of the overflow slowly... when you crash up side down with a full tank and are pinned under the thing... there may be a small drip of gas from the vent line.
LOL - now THAT'S funny!  cheers 
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NorthBayGriso
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:32 pm

OK - here are the results of today's canisterectomy:

I have 4 hoses terminating in front of the rear wheel: 2 are uncapped black tubes, and 2 are clear.  The clear ones were capped, and contained fluid: one was a red, clear fluid [similar to transmission fluid]; the other was an opaque brown fluid, similar to engine oil [which it could be].

I have pics, but don't seem to have the necessary account[s] for hosting and embedding here.  And, of course, PMs don't really work for me [Steak is aware of the issue; it seems unfixable].

And...my bike had already had a partial canisterectomy:

*  One line going in was open to atmosphere
*  The hoses between the throttle bodies were already joined together.  This is presumably where the above "open" hose was originally connected to.  This hose was left in-place, unmodified.
*  The only hose used by the canister was connected to the fuel tank; the tip-over valve didn't seem OEM, and was still inline.  I cut the hose above the tip-over valve, joined it with the available hose remnant to vent to atmosphere in front of the rear tire, with all the other hoses.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

NBG


Last edited by NorthBayGriso on Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Uzidzit
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:25 pm

you have the tank lines correct, the orange and blue valve is the stock part (good to be rid of it)
just do the sync and tps set and yes you are done, except for removing the extra stuff, functionally you are finished.
yes those two clear tubes are drains, one is the air box which is engine oil the other is tranny
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NorthBayGriso
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:20 pm

Given that I didn't change anything WRT the throttle bodies, do I need to sync them? The only reason I ask is because I don't have the equipment to perform one.
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Uzidzit
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:35 am

given the tbs were already connected you are right. I just do the sync when I mess with pretty much anything....just habit
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bradbusa
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Tue May 12, 2015 4:50 pm

i decided to give this one a go over the weekend. replaced the T fitting between the throttle bodies with a brass barb, and ran the tank overflow down to where the collector for the other "drain" hoses are. this hose is left open correct?
there is actually enough hose on the long end of the tip over valve to do this without cutting anything. and remove the short hose leading to the tip over valve, along with the tip over valve.

what i am hoping for is someone who can upload a photo of what the bike looks like from the factory without the canister in place.
the rear bolt that goes to the hose collector is fine, but the front 8mm allen bolt.. is that spot just left open with an exposed bolt hole from the factory?
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ScottMellor
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:50 pm

Brad I just did it like you did with the long hose reaching up to the tank after removing the short hose and the tip over valve.  I plugged off the throttle bodies instead of joining them in the middle.
I noticed that there is an empty 8 mm bolt hole on the other side of the engine too. I'm going to get 2 cap bolts to fill those holes.
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Siggy Javotnik
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:43 pm

Scott, these 8V motors are reported to run noticeably better with the TBs linked rather than capped. Also, leaving them linked makes it much easier for you to hook up your manometer when you sync the TBs. That said, to each his own, if it works for you or you like the look better, enjoy. You'll just have to re-install the stock metal pieces to the TBs when you go to sync them, no big whoop. Just don't discard them!
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ScottMellor
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:19 pm

Hi Siggy,
Thanks for the info.
Actually I left the metal spigots in place and put a blanking cap on each one. All I would do is pull the caps and install the manometer hoses directly on the spigots.
I was not aware that the motor would run better with the TBs joined.
Can you direct me to that information anywhere?
If it's important I'll re-plumb the balance tube without the T that went to the canister.
Scott
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Siggy Javotnik
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:36 pm

Blanking cap = great idea, I wouldn't have thought of that. Turns out I read about linking the TBs at Guzzitech, which is not a favorite here, but it has some nice smart guys contributing to it. At least, until their posts get deleted by some sort of mass website glitch as has happened before.

Removing the canister on a Stelvio is, to put it bluntly, fucking bullshit horror. Scott posted how he did it and said this, "Now, using your extra hose you have removed, (you will have to trim the hose to the proper length), pass it through the middle of the motorcycle and connect a hose between both the left and right side banjo nuts or M6 vacuum adapters you have in the throttle-bodies. Todd and many others on the forum here, say that this will greatly improve your idle and throttle response, and I found this to be true." The post is here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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ScottMellor
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:02 am

I read through that thread. The original poster on that thread says he blanks off the TBs.
Todd wrote:
I recommend connecting the two with a part of the rubber line you remove. It does smooth the idle and makes for easy T/B balance in the future without worry of missing caps or re-installing the fittings. wrote:

Does anyone have an opinion as to whether or not the bike runs better with the TBs connected?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:39 am

There is absolutely no reason I can think of that it would.
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NorthernProducer
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:46 am

I finally got around to doing this mod after experiencing what appears to be the "usual" issues associated with the evap system. Here is what I experienced on a recent ride that got me off my ass to ditch the system: I had just completed a 40 mile trip along a fast moving freeway (average 80 - 85 mph) on a hot day (temps in the 90'sF) and then I exited to my next stop. At that stop, the GRiSO (a 2015 model with no engine mods) maintained a 2000 rpm idle for the next several stops and then after a few more stops, settled down to a normal idle. It would on occasion run a rough at idle on a really hot day (high 90's to 100F) even without the high speed freeway run. Removing the evap system seems to have cured it.

Interestingly, I was visiting my dealer the other day and was chatting with their MG tech (who has a lot of years experience with Guzzi's and Aprilia's) about my evap experience and he said that removing the system was generally the cure for the symptom's I experienced. They will not allow their tech's to remove the systems from customers' bikes, but they also will not report "missing" systems to Piaggio.
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invasion_1
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:34 pm

[quote="Uzidzit"]
NorthBayGriso wrote:


NOW RE_SYNC and set the TPS


Sorry for the noob question but what is "re-sync" and "TPS" ?

Thanks.

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:40 pm

Re-sync = Synchronise throttle bodies. TPS = throttle position sensor.



Idea



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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:45 am

invasion_1 wrote:

Sorry for the noob question but what is "re-sync" and "TPS" ?

Thanks.


Please note that BEFORE you start fiddling about with ANYTHING to do with the tune, and most particularly the throttle bodies, you familiarise yourself fully with the tools you need and the correct procedure otherwise you'll be opening yourself up to a world of pain.

Pete
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invasion_1
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:05 am

Pete Roper wrote:
invasion_1 wrote:

Sorry for the noob question but what is "re-sync" and "TPS" ?

Thanks.


Please note that BEFORE you start fiddling about with ANYTHING to do with the tune, and most particularly the throttle bodies, you familiarise yourself fully with the tools you need and the correct procedure otherwise you'll be opening yourself up to a world of pain.

Pete

Roger. Thanks guys.
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PostSubject: Re: Canister-ectomy   Today at 10:05 pm

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