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 Another oncoming tappet failure?

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pkroupa
Montanarolo
Montanarolo


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Join date : 2015-07-16
Age : 42

PostSubject: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:32 pm

I have my GRiSO only two months (2008 8v with 20k km). I have done all service, at first 20k km service in MG authorized service - reason is service history, than all tuning by myself, valve clearance and unf....ng sacred screws, Marks map etc, many thanks to Ghettoist.
Bike is after first factory recall - changed camshaft and "updated" hard coating tappets.
There was no change in valve clearance after 1000km.
But because I want to be sure that my tappets are ok, today I disassembled left side. And I'm not so happy with results :-(
Tappet on the exhaust side is worn, not so much but is. After weekend I will try Czech Moto Guzzi office, I discuss tappets problem on this bike (VIN) before I bought it and MG technical manager says that is it relevant to request new system in a case of failure. We will se :-)
Left side tappets picture 1:
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Left side tappets picture 2:
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Left Camshaft  IN:
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Left camshaft OUT:
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Petr
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Pete Roper
GRiSO
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:12 pm

Alas, she be fucked! Good luck with getting a conversion.

Pete
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FreshEgg
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


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Join date : 2013-09-11

PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:07 pm

Ahhh...Shit! Sorry man. That really sucks. The good news is that the swap itself is not that hard with the resources available on this site, albeit expensive for parts and time consuming mostly because of the associated systems - disassembling and cleaning the oil breather system, air-box, intake manifolds and sump.

1. Why is it so often the left side? I think the tappet that failed on mine was EXACTLY the same one.

2. That wear pattern is weird. Aren't tappets supposed to rotate. On other pushrod motors, the tappet is ground slightly convex to promote this, no?

3. I'm getting more-and-more pissed with each failure confirming a factory flaw. Any attorney's in the Ghetto. When does an issue qualify for a class action lawsuit?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:52 pm

The failure pattern, while different to most, is not unique by any stretch of the imagination. I've read several papers now on DLC failures in this application and some of the failure patterns are truly bizarre!

As for being pissed off? Imagine how I feel when people blame ME because they see me as the factory's agent and they just want to give someone a mouthful!

The fact that the problem wasn't detected during testing, while odd, is not outrageous. Testing generally concentrates on using stuff very hard but for comparatively short periods of time. Failures in *everyday* use, even with extensive road testing, may not become obvious until you start getting higher mirages clocked up by owners.

What does make me deeply uneasy is the fact that the engineers seem to have decided by mid 2010 that they were never going to make the flat tappets work and had at least a very well developed idea what they were going to do about it. They may even of already had working prototypes of the roller system being tested. At that mid-year point they started sticking the valve spring shims into new motors and these can of had absolutely no benefit for the flat tappet top end. To me that would indicate that they knew they were eventually be going to have to offer a replacement solution to owners of flat tappet bikes BUT WHILE THEY WERE GEARING UP FOR PRODUCTION AND WERE LAUNCHING THEIR NEW FLAGSHIP, THE CALI 1400, THEY CONTINUED TO SELL A DESIGN THEY KNEW WAS INADEQUATE AND FAILURE PRONE! That to me stinks of extremely sharp practice and if it is true it lowers my estimation of the Piaggio management considerably as it is unconscionable behaviour and both morally and ethically bankrupt.

Pete
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pauldaytona
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:13 am

And then the 10 different versions cams and tappets that each time should solve it. And the people who told that there was a problem were told they had no clue.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:04 pm

As far as I was concerned Paul before I was going to join the hysterical, shrieking horde I wanted evidence of a systemic problem. I didn't have it.

Up until last year I'd never had a cam tappet failure through my shop. The only ones I'd seen were on bikes that were poorly or incorrectly serviced and had a raft of issues of which failed tappets was only one! Sorry but I'm not someone who is going to just go along with the herd, I need evidence.

I was, and still am, very interested in trying to isolate exactly the cause of the failures and have spent considerable amounts of time and money researching the issue. I now believe that there are a raft of issues but that it takes a combination of factors to initiate failure. The fact that it is so much more prevalent in some markets than others tends to back this up.

I'll quite happily admit I was wrong about there not being a problem with the design but without evidence that there was and plenty of evidence that bikes weren't being serviced correctly, (A problem that persists nearly ten years after the 8V's introduction.) what am I supposed to think?

Pete
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Tolle09
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:27 pm

Just to add my five pence worth, rollerising top ends is regarded as being the answer to premature wear, but only time will tell. When the root of the problem is overcooling due to lack of a stat in the oil cooler circuit. Surely even rollers aren't going to fare that well in a moisture laden environment for very long especially in cooler climes. Rollerising and fitting a stat or matrix air flow baffle will obviously pay off long term.
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:27 pm

The tappets on my 09 went to shit a 36K miles and when that happened, I just concluded that it was a design flaw that was made worse by dealers that didn't know their asshole from a hole on the ground.

My dealer (a competent one) did the swap recall before they sold me the bike so I started with the best case scenario.
I serviced the bike myself from the first oil change so I know that the bike was not tempered with at any point but yet, the tappet shat the bed.
My dealer kindly sent me used cams and tappet so I could use the bike until the kit C came out but I wrecked the bike shortly after and never got a chance to rollerrise it.
So I got a new 2013 and rode on. Very Happy
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:26 pm

Tolle09 wrote:
Just to add my five pence worth, rollerising top ends is regarded as being the answer to premature wear, but only time will tell. When the root of the problem is overcooling due to lack of a stat in the oil cooler circuit. Surely even rollers aren't going to fare that well in a moisture laden environment for very long especially in cooler climes.  Rollerising and fitting a stat or matrix air flow baffle will obviously pay off long term.

Yup, time will tell, but it's the end of 2015 about three years in from the introduction of the roller top end and I have yet to hear of a single failure and believe me I'm keeping an ear wide open because you can guarantee that as soon as the first one goes bad the Internet will erupt in an orgy of hand flapping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Actually on reflection that isn't completely true. I have heard of one Norge that trashed its top end but that was because when it was assembled the flinger plate on the end of one of the cams was positioned in such a way that the locator peg for the sprocket could fall out, which it did. No fault of the roller top end. Just poor assembly.

Pete
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Lemppari
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:54 am

Left side? As i bought my GRiSO, it had 22 000 km's on it. There had been a 20 thou service at 19 000 by an authorized service, a man I know to be meticulous about his work. The bike had- and has still- issues about running on low to middle rpm on constant throttle and I also thought the left side valve gear being a bit loud.

Upon checking, the intakes were 0,2 mm and exhausts 0,3. Right side was on the dot. Now if this was only 3000km's after the last adjustment and only on left side, should I be worried? Luckily the bike has been serviced at an authorized mechanic from the beginning, so there should be no problems if the valve gear needs changing.

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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:55 am

Was thinking the same thing Pete...
If the roller set up had a flaw, it would be known by now.

What's the highest mileage on a roller bike that you know of?
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1151
Sfregiato
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:05 am

If I were a company that had invested a lot of time and money bringing a product to market and knew within a short period there was a recurring issue with it that I had not fully determine the cause of failure for, how would I deal with it? I reckon just as Piaggio / MG has, by being quiet regarding any cause of the issue and simply offering extended warranties on some of the failed parts and implementing newly designed kits for the top ends. Not saying I agree with their course of action as many have gotten stuck forking out a lot of extra cash they should not have had to. I was almost one of them but the failure on my bike occurred at 10,000kms and was diagnosed at the time of the second service at the dealer while under warranty thankfully.

Hopefully the roller systems are sturdy enough to last for a long time if not the life of the bike.

Sorry to hear about the failure Petr. Hope you get the bike back on the road soon!
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yrunvs
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:09 pm

So what about the mayo? Do most 8V's experience mayo and how does that factor into the roller conversion. And do the new 8V's still get mayo?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Roller top end won't affect heat but it does seem to be impervious to damage by moisture. We have lots of members in the Pacific North West of the USA and blighty here and some of them have roller bikes. No failures yet and if they were doing to fail that is where I'd expect them to start.

Pete
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Lemppari
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:54 pm

Just came home from the garage after another valve check at 23 750 km's. Right side was more or less OK. Left side intakes were 0,2 mm both, after adjusting them to 0,12 at 22 500. Exhausts were 0,26 after adjusting them to 0,16 ditto.
Last time they were 0,2 and 0,3 respectively, altogether that makes at least 0,13 intake, 0,16 exhaust after the professional 20 000 service. The left side exhaust adjuster screw ends are already even with the locknuts, on right side they are markedly longer. Maybe the time to start negotiating for the rollerisation, wouldn't you think.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:03 pm

Keep riding it and you will destroy the engine completely.
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Lemppari
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:24 pm

We have this thing called winter and snow coming soon here in northern hemisphere, so I'd rather take the roller thingy. Only problem being the 500 km's to nearest authorized Guzzi service.....

I just wanted to be sure before I make my claim to the authorized service. Now I am.

The funny thing was that there was an ample amount of mayo on the right side which had no gap widening and practically no mayo on the affected left side.
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:16 pm

My 09 ha always sounded clattery in the top end, but performs perfectly. Pulls hard and smooth on getting the  beans, and ticks over just fine.

Short of dismantling the top end, how would I know jf the dreaded problem has hit my bike (which has only done 3K summer days-out rides)? If it does happen, I'd want to get it fixed ASAP without riding it any further!
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little750
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:02 pm

Check the tappet clearances if they have opened up then its time to get the rollers. As Pete says it is better to do it before this then your engine will not be full of swarf from the failing tappets. I am going to do mine this winter.
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klaas123
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:18 pm

I always keep my ZDDP levels around 2000ppi using this: CamShield

So far so good but keep fingers crossed..
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:28 pm

So no clues it's happening without getting the spanners out for a look?
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klaas123
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:47 pm

Vince C wrote:
So no clues it's happening without getting the spanners out for a look?

Increasing tappet clearence during regular check-ups gives you the clue
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:07 pm

The thing is high levels of ZDDP may actually be counter productive with the DLC coating. Depends on its composition. The oil I have always used has higher than average ZDDP levels, didn't save my tappets or those of other bikes I've serviced but life before catastrophic failure seems to have been extended.

Pete
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:14 pm

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Last edited by Vince C on Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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klaas123
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Another oncoming tappet failure?   Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:17 pm

Thanks for the info Pete, one day I will go to rollers as well but as long as things seem fine I like to throw my money at other things drunken
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