12425 - Established June, 2013 - all GRiSO, all the time...
 
HomeFAQRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 How about this for an exhaust.

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Lemppari
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 72
Join date : 2015-09-03
Age : 59

PostSubject: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:25 am

I don't particularly like the sound of the QD pipe in my GRiSO. I'd like a deep, low pitch 'rumble' as I had in my V11 with oval carbon Mistrals. The QD has a higher staccato popping sound which I attribute to the short and narrowish chamber. Also having read here about the engine breathing better with more volume in the exhaust system, I'm now considering buying the Agostini oval scarico carbonio.

Have any brethren here had said muffler? I can't find any flicks with sound so I could listen if I'm guessing right about the sound. Or is the assumption about the volume of the exhaust even right? With the OEM pretzel?


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
KevinEmpire
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 63
Join date : 2015-07-05
Age : 25

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:44 am

Can't comment on that particular exhaust, but I recently switched from the Agostini Hydroformed pipe to the high-mount Mistral and I prefer the sound of the Mistral for exactly the reasons you say above. The Ago Hydroformed pipe was pretty much straight through with a very narrow, angular muffler chamber and it sounded pretty wicked at wide open throttle, but didn't produce that boomy, V8 sort of tone that I was hopping to get out of the GRiSO, especially in the mid range where it droned a lot and sounded sort of tinny. The Mistral high mount with it's more traditional oval canister is a better sounding pipe across the rev range, but still not super deep.

I almost think you'd need two mufflers to have sufficient volume to produce the deep sound of the older V11's etc.
Back to top Go down
Street
Nibbio
Nibbio


Posts : 892
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 57

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:12 am

This one sounds nice:

Back to top Go down
Daves-i-Know
Grignapoco
Grignapoco


Posts : 173
Join date : 2015-07-24
Age : 52

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:23 am

This pipe is excellent, lemppari. I picked it up three years ago from AF1 and really love it,

The sound is awesome, and in the low range of rumbling, by my account, and would never be described as tinny.

Didn't have to make any fuel modifications either, just slipped it on and went!

I also find the GRiSO shifting to be much more seamless since the Agostini went on. Not sure why,

but it was an added bonus.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
Back to top Go down
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO


Posts : 3783
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:34 pm

As most regulars here know I am no fan of loud pipes but I add that simply as a qualification for what I'm about to say which is that for whatever reason I have yet to hear any can or pipe set-up on an 8V motored bike that offers the truly 'Basso Proffundo' rumble of something like a V11 or VTR Honda with Staintunes.

Whether this is simply because I haven't found a pipe that produces the right tone? My hearing impairment meaning I'm just not hearing the same as I used to? Or simply the design and resonance factors that govern how the 8V engine works? I have no real idea! I do know that I've yet to find any pipe that in my book ranges from 'Mildly Annoying' right through to 'Grossly Obnoxious' that produces that addictive 'Rolling Thunder' tone of the two quoted examples above produce.

For me though the major factor is performance and quite simply there is nothing really to be achieved performance wise on a stock cammed, road going 8V. OK, having a well mapped, open piped engine may, if it is correctly tuned and set up give you ever so slightly more torque and a couple more HP at the top end than a similar machine running a *Quieter* pipe BUT the trade off will be it will be less efficient, more vibratory and much more tiring to ride than the quieter machine. My opinion is that for any rider they would find that on any trip involving riding for enjoyment on the public road rather than a half hour session on the track that a quieter set up would not only be more enjoyable but would render them *Quicker* between point A and point B than the louder system even if it did produce slightly more power.

As far as aural enjoyment goes, especially on a bike like the GRiSO with minimal wind protection, there is also the question of what you, the pilot, hear. Quite simply if I don't wear ear plugs any ride over about fifteen minutes in length results in discomfort simply from wind noise, never mind the engine! For that reason alone I always wear ear plugs but an added benefit is that they filter out the annoying, (And exhausting!) higher frequencies meaning that I, the rider can enjoy the aural stimulation of the engine's labours without the associated tiring 'Going five rounds with Mike Tyson' racket being punched into my ears! Since rollerising, (Or in my case re-motoring.) my bike, when ridden with earplugs in, is almost eerily quiet when simply cruising along at close to the legal limit. If I choose to stick the spurs in though I still get all the aural pleasure I want or need but I'm also not annoying the shit out of every other person within a three mile radius of where I am! Being 'Stealthy' in this way also prevents drawing attention to myself from the wallopers! Since I 'Went Quiet' I have had substantially fewer tugs by plod, when I have been pulled over for RBT or licence checks etc. the attitude of plod has on the whole been much less beligerant and the bike itself has effectively been ignored. In the brief period I ran the beautiful but appallingly loud and inefficient Guzzitech pipe I got pulled over on a regular basis and had the bike gone over with a fine tooth comb looking for defects. Why? Because it was an antisocial, pestilential, pain in the arse for anybody in my shire and possibly neighbouring ones as well and the filth like nothing more than an easy pull!

Finally there is the fact that quite simply, the 8V particularly, works better with a quieter pipe. The reasons for this are not terrifically complex but they do defy the conventional orthodoxy parroted by those who think they know but at the same time refuse to think! In contemporary terms the 8V is a deeply unconventional engine. The approach to getting the best out of it has to be similarly unconventional. If people choose not to believe that? Fine, is no skin off my nose but I'll bet you anything you like that my bike runs better than yours, my level of enjoyment is every bit as high as someone with a loud piped horror and when I get off at the end of a long day in the saddle I won't be deafened and exhausted. An added bonus is that I'll have more money for beer as I won't of been wasting as much petrol flinging it out of the exhaust pipe to stink up the environment!

Any way you look at it a well mapped, quieter engine is a good thing!

Pete
Back to top Go down
KevinEmpire
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 63
Join date : 2015-07-05
Age : 25

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:53 pm

Pete,

Interesting read. It's fascinating how unique the Guzzi 8v motor is and its specific tuning requirements. Out of curiosity is it a timing thing or cam profile or what about it makes them as "unconventional" as they are?

Also, just incase I wasn't terribly clear above, I think the goal of what the OP is asking is not necessarily about loud pipes, but about the tone. I agree with you that overly loud pipes are irritating and undesirable.

I think the routing of the exhaust, specifically the 2-into-1 design, combined with lack of muffler volume for most aftermarket exhaust is why the bike doesn't have the same tone as older Guzzi's. Has anybody made a "true-dual" exhaust for a GRiSO or other 8v bike? That would be interesting.
Back to top Go down
beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO


Posts : 3976
Join date : 2013-09-30

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:26 pm

This thread appeared at an opportune time. The last two days I've been unwell and have been sitting around thinking. A dangerous pastime indeed. So of you whom have been members of this forum for a while know I am a bit of an exhaust perv. I've also have dabbled a bit in fuel injection mapping. I have put a few not inconsiderable hours into investigating, modifying and testing the GRiSO exhaust.

The 8V, as Pete points out, is not your average engine. It's the head, mind. That wonderful, frustrating, bitch-tease, the Nuovo Hi-Cam.

Valve overlap and charge transition are the culprits. If you increase inlet speed and exhaust speed too much on the 8V, you may as well poke a hole in your tank and let fuel dribble out why you ride around on your very poor performing and horribly loud bike.

Physics. There, I said it. Yes, some of you have now tuned out. Physics of the internal combustion engine exhaust. Of course, the inlet plays a wee part of now the engine breathes and works, but suffice to say, Dont fucking change the filter.

You may also know that I'm not interested in top end power. I do likes me some torque though. The "open up the exhaust and put a rock strainer filter in and pour in more fuel so we can get 112hp" idea would be fine if you only ride on the track. The GRiSO is a street bike. The bulk of us only ride on the street. On the street, torque is king.

Now, to keep it simple, the 2 into 1 will produce more torque than a 2 into 2 (true dual, as Kevin called it). Did someone say 'back pressure'? Get out now. Wash your mouth out with soap and don't come until your potty-mouth is fixed. Back pressure (eww) is bad. We don't want no stinkin' back pressure. What we want to do is control (or tune) the exhaust gas speed. We want to slow it down at certain points in the rev range, and speed it up in other points. Now, you can do that with a 2 into 2 by changing the diameter of the pipe and adding bends at the right place, using reversion cones and the right sized dB killer. You also get a good note.  However, it's not as effective for performance purposes, as the 2 into 1. And by performance, I mean torque.

Despite that, I've designed a 2 into 2 for the GRiSO. Whether I'll ever get it built is another thing. I'm very happy with the performance of my GRiSO when it's in its usual Arrow + Mistral trim. Once I've got all the maps rollerized and built the Agostini maps, I don't think I'll be building any more maps. It's time consuming and occasionally tedious. But I won't be able to stop fiddling with my GRiSO. So, who knows?


Now, I've yet to try out the two Agostini's yet, but as far as Basso Profundo is concerned, Len's gutted Termi I built a map for has been the loudest and deepest I have ever heard. Way too loud for me, but the note was awesome. Deep. Throbbing.

The downside was less torque and more fuel burnt. I'm still think it went pretty well, but I had to increase the spark advance quite a bit to get the torque back. It was a reasonably smooth ride, as smooth as you can get with a Termi. He'd removed the catcon and modified the outlet. It was basically a hollow tube.



[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO


Posts : 3783
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:56 pm

The one thing Mark missed mentioning is the fact that unlike the vast majority of modern 'Performance' heads the Guzzi head is a cross-flow rather than a downdraught design. The incoming and outgoing charges have mass and therefore inertia, they want to keep travelling in a straight line.

With the long valve overlap, at certain engine speeds particularly, the narrow included valve angle actively encourages charge transition and any incoming mixture that rushes straight across the top of the piston and fucks off out the exhaust valves is not only wasted but is doing unnecessary damage to the environment and costing decent beer money! What a prick of an idea!

If you look at the results of some of the worshippers at the shrine of loud pipes and power commanders one thing that is almost universally stated is that the bikes are "Really smooth" but they "Drink juice!". This is usually glossed over by stating that it doesn't matter because the owner "Didn't buy the bike for economy and performance costs." I'm sorry, this is frogshit! Good performance and decent fuel economy are NOT mutually exclusive. The smoothness and high fuel consumption have nothing to do with 'Performance' and everything to do with waste and poor tuning!

Gakk!

PS. The Cali 1400 uses a 2-into-2 system with effectively the same engine. If you put loud pipes on one of those it sounds like it's been hit with a drunken shit-stick too.
Back to top Go down
Daves-i-Know
Grignapoco
Grignapoco


Posts : 173
Join date : 2015-07-24
Age : 52

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:22 pm

Pete Roper wrote: "I've yet to find any pipe that in my book ranges from 'Mildly Annoying' right through to 'Grossly Obnoxious' that produces that addictive 'Rolling Thunder' tone of the two quoted examples above produce."

Just so you know before you buy, lemppari, my Agostini is far from rolling thunder. Its probably
somewhere between stock and a Harley, and I like the volume to be at a level that I can drive in stealth mode if I choose to (my neighbourhood, or urban areas later at night).The tone is a low one, but far from a Harley grumbler. If that's what you're looking for, this one is great.
Back to top Go down
beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO


Posts : 3976
Join date : 2013-09-30

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:40 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
The one thing Mark missed mentioning is the fact that unlike the vast majority of modern 'Performance' heads the Guzzi head is a cross-flow rather than a downdraught design. The incoming and outgoing charges have mass and therefore inertia, they want to keep travelling in a straight line.

Thanks Pete. Yes, forgot it. But then there was also the essay on exhaust theory I also snipped, after spending and hour writing it. I proof read it and even my own eyes glazed over.


Back to top Go down
KevinEmpire
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 63
Join date : 2015-07-05
Age : 25

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:11 pm

Well this has turned into a fascinating thread in a hurry. Part of what I love about Guzzi owenership (and this forum, it seems) is the knowledge.

On that note, Mark, you shoulda posted the exhaust theory bit. I woulda read it. Haha
Back to top Go down
keenerkeen07
Sfregiato
Sfregiato


Posts : 477
Join date : 2014-04-10
Age : 62

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:31 pm

Daves-i-Know wrote:
Pete Roper wrote: "I've yet to find any pipe that in my book ranges from 'Mildly Annoying' right through to 'Grossly Obnoxious' that produces that addictive 'Rolling Thunder' tone of the two quoted examples above produce."

Just so you know before you buy, lemppari, my Agostini is far from rolling thunder. Its probably
somewhere between stock and a Harley, and I like the volume to be at a level that I can drive in stealth mode if I choose to (my neighbourhood, or urban areas later at night).The tone is a low one, but far from a Harley grumbler. If that's what you're looking for, this one is great.

I have the Agostini db killer in  as well  but in SS and on the 1100 GRiSO  as far as sound goes  at idle and at slow speeds in town it has a nice rumble not offensive but its there to hear..at highway speeds when cracked open i can hear it bellow but in reality i wouldn't call it particularly loud.

that being said ...when we ride our bikes we really do not hear what they really sound like , we are ahead of the immediate exhaust
and if you are wearing hearing protection (plugs) its even less evident.
This summer i had a friend  do a.. ride by.. on my GRiSO so i could actually hear what it really sounded like to everyone else, it sounded nice , crisp purposeful and not in any way excessive or too loud, even when he opened it up it was still the same but with just more of it, good enough for me anyway..
the bike sounds good to me when i am aboard but then again , what i am hearing is for me only and different than anyone else would hear.
So who are we really playing the music for? Surprised

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


Last edited by keenerkeen07 on Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:44 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add pic)
Back to top Go down
Lemppari
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 72
Join date : 2015-09-03
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:43 am

Thanks guys for the input! As KevinEmpire put it, I'm not after loudness. When I want loud, I just take my LM I for a ride. Lafranconi Competizione, open bellmouth Dell'Ortos and a stance that brings the rider directly above the cyl.heads to listen to the 0,22 mm gapped valves. Sublime racket and a luod one at that!

What I'm after is that deep, low growl instead of a staccato pop pop pop. I presume that is something you get with a large volume chamber and if that gives a nicely running engine as a byproduct, no complaints from me! I don't need high-end HP, I'm after tractability, torque.

If it would be a matter of looks alone, I'd buy the Ipothesys system immediately! I also ride two-up with hard luggage every now and then, so the pipe should not rise too high up and yet again, torque and tractability is important.

I think the low thump is something one enjoys immensely in the morning, engine running on idle during warm-up while one puts the helmet and gloves on. At higher speeds, 120 kmh and over I couldn't hear even the sound of open Mistral carbons of my Rosso Mandello!
Back to top Go down
Steak
L'Innominato
L'Innominato


Posts : 1905
Join date : 2013-05-28
Age : 51

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:57 pm

It's the 2 into 2 that creates that beautiful V11 sound. 2 into 1 systems will never make a comparable sound. 2 into 1 exhausts on the 1200 8V motors are more barking NASCAR V8 than that gorgeous throbbing tone you hear from a 2 into 2 (cross-over, non-merged pulse)

Even that two canned outfit from Germany suffers the same fate as the exhaust tracks from cylinder to can are not truly separate but merge then split under the bike..

A true 2 into 2 custom set-up is the only way to find the true "basso profundo."

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
Back to top Go down
http://www.grisoghetto.com
Steak
L'Innominato
L'Innominato


Posts : 1905
Join date : 2013-05-28
Age : 51

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:00 pm

Street wrote:
This one sounds nice:


You know, Starr played the trombone in high school... We may have to give that a try!

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
Back to top Go down
http://www.grisoghetto.com
ronbo10
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 84
Join date : 2014-09-16
Age : 58

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:41 am

Hello Lemppari. I'm running a Zard with DB killer in and quite like it. Beetle has an excellent map for it which I've taken advantage of. The video below is a fairly good approximation of what it sounds like (if you have decent computer speakers or headphones, anyway).


The  same machine with Zard but without DB killer:



I prefer the sound with the DB killer in, as it gets a bit stacato with it out.

On my own bike with the DB killer in I'd say it's got a somewhat deep rumble to it though I've not had anyone do a ride-by while I listen, so I'm not sure what it sounds like opened up. My neighbor (who's not into bikes at all) says  it sounds pleasant and not too loud, esp. compared to the open piped Harley down the street (though that's not saying much).

Here's a two-vavle Grsio with the same Zard (title says it's without the DB killer, though you can clearly see that it's in).



And here's a 2-Valver pulling away from a stop with the Zard:



Sounds nice, if I do say so.

The 2-valve GRiSO seems to sound a little deeper than what the 8V/Zard combo does (using the videos above for comparison; this might be partly attributed to the environment in which these recordings were made (e.g. cinder block walls etc), but I think also that 2 valvers will just sound deeper and less stacato because their exhaust gasses aren't accelerated to as high a speed as what you'll get with the 8V.  I had a V11 Sport with a Raceco 2-1-2 that sounded deeper than my GRiSO, but it was in retrospect too loud under WOT. I much prefer my GRiSO 8V in this regard.

You can get the Zard in Black, Brushed Stainless, or (though I've never seen one) polished stainless. Looks are always subjective, but I really like it- I think it suits the bike well.
Back to top Go down
Charlie J
Sfregiato
Sfregiato


Posts : 434
Join date : 2014-10-22
Age : 56

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:48 am

At the moment I have a Staintune on the 1200. Without db killer. NOT loud. It is quite a long pipe with substantial sound absorbing material. I think it sounds better than Ago X and Ago rev cone but proper maps may fix that.
Back to top Go down
Lemppari
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 72
Join date : 2015-09-03
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:18 pm

Thanks Ronbo10 and Charlie J. I have heard the Zard before, and as you said, it sounds better with the dBkiller on. The only thing that worries me is wether it's not too high for the Givi V35 bags. Well, one can always buy one and resell it if it doesn't suit.....
Back to top Go down
Midlifecrisis
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 26
Join date : 2014-09-11

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:43 am

@Lemppari - we must be kindred spirits! I have a Lemans with Lafranconi exhaust and a GRiSO with the Ipothysis system (which runs and sounds very sweet IMO!)
Back to top Go down
Lemppari
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 72
Join date : 2015-09-03
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:54 am

Midlifecrisis wrote:
@Lemppari - we must be kindred spirits! I have a Lemans with Lafranconi exhaust and a GRiSO with the Ipothysis system (which runs and sounds very sweet IMO!)

Then I'm really interested to know how your GRiSO engine runs with the Ipothesys pipes, any gaps in torque curve or surging?
Back to top Go down
Midlifecrisis
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 26
Join date : 2014-09-11

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:56 pm

No I'm very happy with the way the bike runs with the Ipothesys exhaust. Purely subjectively I think the engine revs a little more freely - I seem to hold each gear a little longer than I used to. Possibly I'm just savouring the sound though?

I'm pleased that the bike doesn't pop and bang on the overrun (like it used to with a Termignoni!). I took the plugs out recently and they are both the same colour, which I was told they might not be?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
austin_22
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 47
Join date : 2014-08-12

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:57 pm

I've just put on a GPR can for my '13 1200. It sits a bit high (too close to my turn indicator) so I may have to look at tweaking it a bit, but............... The sound is amazing, at idle and at high revs. Throaty, tough, but not so loud that I am uncomfortable. Of course, it's tuned for 8V 1200, so performance is good and it is noticeably lighter. I almost feels faster and more agile.

Pics and a video with sound to follow. Sorry, my computer skills are lame. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />
Back to top Go down
Gobovic
Montanarolo
Montanarolo


Posts : 11
Join date : 2015-03-28
Age : 30

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:20 pm

Austin I have exactly the same bike and exhaust. Gorgeous! I use the KC34 Portatarga (licence plate bracket) which helps move the indicators up and out the way.
Back to top Go down
austin_22
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 47
Join date : 2014-08-12

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:05 pm

I have been looking for a good fender replacement kit but just haven't found the right one. This is the first time I've seen the KC34. Thank you so much, so very cool. I will look into it.

Question? Are the turn signals part of the replacement kit or can you keep them on the original fender. I have painted mine to match, so might like to keep them. Also, have adjusted the exhaust so that it is a good inch and half away from the turn signal and so far seems to not create too much heat. It is wnter time though, so summer will tell the real tale. By the way, love the pipe, sound is awesome and losing the weight of the stock can is nice. (plus, i just hated the looks)

Do you have a pic of your configuration?
Back to top Go down
MrButter
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 39
Join date : 2013-10-28

PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:56 pm

I liked my Termignoni just fine (DB killer in) , lovely sound on the G11 and not offensive - until the puttana cagna fica started developing teeny wee cracks around the mounting bracket welds.... now repaired, lets see if it lasts.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: How about this for an exhaust.   Today at 3:44 am

Back to top Go down
 
How about this for an exhaust.
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
GRiSO ghetto :: The Ghetto :: GRiSO Inspiration-
Jump to: