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 Smooth is hiding from me

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Conor W
Grignapoco
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Join date : 2014-11-29

PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:44 am

Pete (and any others I haven't yet put to sleep during this story...)

Valve Timing: short story - I think all is well there.

longer story: bit of fun and games to get it done but believe the timing is right.

Specs I was referencing were:

Inlet Open: 36 deg btdc
Inlet Close: 62 deg abdc
Exh Open: 58 deg bbdc
Exh Close: 30 deg atdc

Couldn't get hold of a purpose made timing wheel one so made one - not pretty but worked well enough. (the printable templates from (http://www.blocklayer.com/degree-wheel.aspx) worked nicely. Dial gauge used for valves/rockers.

Realise that specs require a control gap (rocker/valve) of 1.5mm and reference is straight off valve stem but was easier for me to just keep clearances as they were and measure off rocker then ensure midpoint of my bikes' open period matched midpoint of the specs. They matched within a small band given the tolerances of the kit I was using. Happy to take advice from those more knowledgeable but given, say, a single tooth error at the top cam gear would be (360/21) = ~17 degree of cam rotation I suspect I would have seen a decent offset in the timing midpoint if there was an error there - assume that was where your suspicions lay ??

(re: the reference gap - the difference in start and end of open period is quite large comparing the reference gap and the 'normal' running gaps - order of 30deg pre and post, smaller for inlet than exhaust of course. Checked against profile of cam (I have the old ones from the roller change so plotted it out) and this matches up.

Compression: both pots identical at ~200psi. Normal ?


Conor
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:54 am

All back together. New exhaust gaskets was biggest upgrade this time. Big spender...

Good ride through the hills. Continues to be fabulous everywhere except nonsense at steady throttle 2.5k to 3.5k rpm. Can't have everything !
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:36 pm

Let me see if I can summarise? Again.

All was good until you had a plug cap fail. Suddenly, after repair and service, hunting between 2500-3500 RPM.

You've replaced TB's
Replaced throttle cables
New HT leads
Balanced TBs until blue in face.
Tested injectors
Checked ECU wiring and earth
Checked exhaust
New header gaskets

Right? Did I forget anything?
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:54 am

Correct sir

Also checked coils, change plugs (twice) and stepper was swapped from Pete's to mine and checked valve timing


Last night rechecked clearances after terrible run home. I was busy / impatient so it was still warm. Consistent ~2 thou wide on all of them. Interesting, though bike was warm not hot - i.e temps all even for valves/head etc so probably right. Maybe shouldn't have while warm but nevertheless reset to 4/6 while I was there. Fiddled again with throttle settings and got cables spot on. Test ride -  better but still stuttery in usual ~3k range on today's commute.   Will re-re check cold valve clearances and Re-re-re-balance when I get chance Saturday. What else would you do on the weekend.

Will then recheck/re-gasket inlet manifold connections to confirm nothing stupid happening there.

Maybe its the the magnetic field in the hills over here...or the tenni's paint wasn't mixed right...or left footage has a scratch...or I'm no good at something simple...

back on planet earth...I thought it may have been the TPS but I changed that with Pete's TB set with no change.

For want of anything more sensible to do I'm thinking (I think thats what you call this painful feeling in my head) of taking the 'opening throttle' bias settings out of the map just to see if there is any difference in the response - my theory of the moment being the linkage sits wobbling and TPS senses an opening throttle and fires on/off the offset. Not sure why this would be at 3k and not everywhere as all OK at 4K + and not sure why everyone else wouldn't sense same. Any idea what TPS movement (deg/s ?) triggers that bias ? Maybe nonsense.


It will be simple I'm sure. Its only a bike.

(Got all my FJ40 panels back from blast shop. Look magic.)

C
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:30 am

It's a 2010 yes? Has it been rollerised?
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:18 pm

Yep. 12 months back. Ran poorly after that until I changed stock map to beetles ( non roller) map + reset clearances + rebalanced. That was best its run and was all good for ~ 6 + mths. Now on the roller version of map. Have tried reverting to non roller map but no change.
In amongst it I also taped up the drilled airbox holes - no change at least to the problem behaviour.
Will try and find ecu to swap to eliminate that.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Don't bother with the throttle correction, it won't help on your case. I think it's time to log some data, so we can see what's happening.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:24 pm

Send me back the TB's and I'll flash up another ECU and send it over but I don't think it will make a difference. Worth a try though.

Pete
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:42 pm

Send back the TB's ?? But I'll have to find another doorstop ...
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:55 pm

Will run logs on weekend Mark.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:46 pm

What will you use for logging?
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GUZ21
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:09 pm

beetle wrote:
What will you use for logging?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Here's how we do it in Kalamunda.
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:58 pm

Is there another method ?

Mark - Intending to use Scan5mx or whatever its called hardwired in to laptop in tailbag... Have probs with bluetooth and wifi links so cables are plan. Other suggestions ?


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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:33 pm

Nope, that's fine. Do you have a wideband sensor? AFR readings would be most cromulent.
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:48 pm

Not at hand but will try and get one. Specs are somewhere in forum so I'll chase down.

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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:13 am

only had a small amount of time to work with
- cold clearances checked - as suspected, far too tight. Now back to normal 4/6. Won't do clearances warm again.
- balanced (again). Note to self: really good idea to remove carbtune nipples once complete and put inlet manifold plugs bak in or bike really runs like rubbish...
- spent bit of time sorting scanmt. Couldn't get wifi connected but usb was fine. No time to ride. Short log and all is working.
- bit of experimenting with right side TB. Held link rod still and just lightly rocking (rotating) TB shaft in tolerances of stops & was able to get about 0.5deg TPS movement at closed throttle and maybe 1.3 deg at 7degTPS (i.e. where 3k rpm is). Even just a little vertical movement of shaft gets 0.5 deg TPS change.  The fixed movement arc is obviously a larger proportion of throttle position at lower tps positions than towards WOT. Pete's set is off bike (in box ready to go home to bungendore...) but feel's not much different to be honest. Spring tension should hold it still but I don't know... maybe a red herring ..... Would be interested to hear if any of you see same next time you have PC hooked up.
- still chasing a wideband setup.
- Cromulent is a new word to me so had to google. Lisa Simpson has a lot to answer for.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:06 pm

Conor, I am heading back to the east coast on Saturday, if you need the TBs taken (free/gratis) back for Pete. Who needs an excuse for a ride when you've got mail to deliver. If you want I can take them back in my luggage - need to be well wrapped though - baggage handlers don't have a care in the world for other people's luggage.

Only catch is you will have to deliver it to Piara Waters...
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Charlie J
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:16 pm

Gday Conor, I can only speak of this issue with experience with an 1100. The bike went well but was fluffy on a constnt throttle. The T/Bs were hard to baIance sweetly so I replaced inlet guides and valves and matched the ports and cleaned the shit around valve seats, put a Beetle map in it and although a vast improvement I was not truly pleased with it. I followed Swagzz advice and put some brass throttle rod ends on it. Another noticeable improvement but not the full answer. I sent my throttle bodies to E.F.I. Hardware in Melbourne to have the butterflies replaced and butterfly shafts rebushed. That fixed that problem. I havent looked at TBs from a 1200 but if you want to get rid of the slop this may be an option.
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:44 am

Tony: great offer - can probably only get there on Sat morning - when do you leave ? Won't worry about wrapping though - been run over a few times anyway....

Charlie: great stuff - will look those guys up. I'm going to have one last go making sure I really really don't have vacuum leaks, then do some mapping for beetle to look at in a wise manner, then maybe do your list then ship across to EFI. I'll have to wait until Tony (my new courier) comes back to WA to get it over East though...
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Charlie J
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:19 am

Connor I would just get the T/Bs overhauled and leave the motor alone. Mark and Pete have emphasised the dont fuck with me flow character of the 8v.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:13 pm

Conor, Sat morning is good, wrap them in plastic so the rest of my stuff doesn't smell like fuel. I am heading off to the airport around midday. expect a PM with details...
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:02 pm

Conor, PM Sent
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:44 am

This one has been kicking around for a while:
- Throttle bodies changed; no change
- Throttles balanced; no change;
- Valve clearances done (again); no change
- Timing checked (adjusted?); no change
- Map changed; no change
- plug caps changed; no change (though these had been faulty)

So what else?

Buggered if I know but the plug caps might stiff be suspect or the coils or the connection to the ECU - bloody not much else in the circuit, except for the crank position sensor - has this been pulled and checked Conor?
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:50 am

Dumb question fellas.
Is the air gap for crank angle sensor critical?

I recall Roper speaking of shims.
MV Augusta's have rubber mounted pick up, utilizes 'O' rings, which perish and squash and then the bike runs like shit.
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Conor W
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:03 am

Yes, sorry guys, this story has definitely been around too long. I like typing more than riding.
Haven't checked crank sensor though assume that would be problematical all the way through range ?
Haven't changed rider....
Vac check coming.
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PostSubject: Re: Smooth is hiding from me   Today at 5:52 pm

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