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 Oil/Grease Mess around bike

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b3177h
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:53 pm

Ok, So I used to have my GRiSO out about every day or so until it started getting cold here. I did notice some grease/tackyness around the breather hose on the right cylinder, but didn't think much of it. I've looked over the bike tonight and want other opinions of smarter people than myself. Will post What I noticed and pictures. It is definitely something oil related, maybe blow by system(although my understanding of this is that it is just a drain down system, so not sure how to fix this) or could it be something bigger. Please let me know thoughts and what I can do to help myself.  

I saw this post on wildguzzi and figured I would investigate more
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26,8xx miles, Just had major service doen @ 25,000 miles. Previous owner had valves set @ 6 and 8 thousands(at 20K miles). Dealer re-set to 4 and 6 thous @ 25K service

I noticed grease/oil on:
Right Blow-by housing where it connects to the head
Around the base of the airbox
In between the cylinder 'v' I'm assuming this is where the Blow- By housing sits, couldn't get a good picture but I will do my best to note it.
Around the bottom of the oil sump

A side note- it has been warm the past few days so I had my bike out for the first time in a while the right cylinder valves sounded much louder than the left cylinder, again not sure if i just 'think' I'm hearing this or if I definitely am, Leaning more on the definitely side.

From notes of previous owner: looking at issues.

- 20,000 - noticed a small leak under rear of engine
- looks like I have the infamous flange seal problem; this is a common problem, usually related to either two main seal flange bolts too long or flange o-ring seal seat too shallow
- 20,300 - repaired the leak; and performed the following tasks while I was at it (and it was too cold and wet to ride anyway)
- replaced the rear main seal
- replace two bottom flange bolts with bolts that are 5mm shorter
- installed an oversize o-ring from Moto International
- reassembled all flange bolts with thread sealant; new gasket with gray sealant




Ok so picture time:
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Oil drip in the center I mentioned Blow of housing?

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Right head oil

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Oil at sump

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Bead of liquid

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Grease on left side under cylinder

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What I wiped off sump


ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED
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Brent S
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:05 am

Your "Oil at sump" pic is exactly where I have the same oil leak issue, except my bike is a 2014 model. Took it to the dealers and of course, they couldn't find the leak. Hoping it's the top sump spacer seal (there appears to be an upper and lower sump seal).
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:54 am

Did you try replacing the seal with any luck?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:23 am

I haven't had a chance to have a really good look at thevpics yet but my first suggestion would be to remove the *Wings* and pop the tank so you can have a good looksee in the valley to ascertain more clearly where the oil might be coming from. Oil pressure switches sometimes leak. Rocker cover gaskets and o-rings likewise as can the crankcase vent cover o-rings on the breather plates on the back of the cams. Also don't discount perished breather hoses or simply clamps on the hoses that aren't working very well.

If you have oil coming out of the bell housing then it'll be an engine out job to address it.

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:29 pm

was going to pop the tank off tomorrow. No oil drip on the floor when parked, but it is definately wet with maybe a small bead after riding (as shown in pictures) Hope it is something simple
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:50 pm

Ok i lied... maybe like 2-3 drops of oil on the ground after like a hour plus ride. Its quite dark. I checked dipstick oil and it is fine. At max level
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:59 pm

You're sure it's engine oil? Not gear oil.

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:01 pm

it might be gear oil.. But it was on the bottom of oil sump so i assumed engine oil
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:25 pm

Sniff it. If it is really ponky it's gear oil.

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:44 pm

Welp, Did some digging, Here is what I Found.


Ok so I did some digging,
After riding Today I checked the oil filter and sump area for signs of leak. could not find any. So I went to take the tank off. A pain yes, but I've done it before so It's not the end of the world.

What I found:

Nice oil seepage around hose clamps on the left side of the housing at plug #17 and breather hose #16. Right side hoses on the housing were fine. No noticeable oil from them. There was a puddle of oil in the valley of the 'V" of the engine (see picture) unaware as to where this is coming form- possibly blown that way by the wind but doubtful.

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The only thing that was not standard about the set up was that the blow by breather tube normally connects to the left side of the airbox. and I'm assuming the transmission breather connects to the other side. Previous owner installed a stepper motor to increase air flow at idle and to start easier. but that really shouldn't matter since it just connects to atmosphere right?

Anyway I continued, cleaned some dirt from the right cylinder head breather cover(maybe this is why it was leaking) continued on to the plug in the blow by system housing and guess what? full of mayonnaise. Opened the right cylinder cover... and mayonnaise too. Not what I was expecting, Much much worse.
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Now I had the valve covers off a few times when I bought the bike before I took it in for 25k service... No mayonnaise. I don't ride in the rain, I'm not a slouch with the GRiSO either and I don't really take short trips (at least a half hour at minimum) Now of course I don't want to put blame on myself and say it was something I did to the bike, since All the service (since I have had it) was done at a dealer. Would switching to a different brand of oil be enough to do this(previous owner gave me a jug of motul 10w60, which is red, oil from dealer is more of a brownish, not distinct red like the motul)? I know I'm probably grasping at straws here.

I saw Freshegg has the same issues as me
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But my question is how long does it take for this mayonnaise to build up, could it be done in the last 2k miles since service or last 200 (since I stopped riding it hard for the winter)

And to add insult to injury I stripped one of the Valve cover bolts when re-installing it....by hand with an allen wrench. It put one helluva damper on my Sunday. Sad

Looking at fresheggs forum post, It looks like there isn't really a cheap or easy fix to this problem. What to do what to do?
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:46 pm

Side note, I store in in an unclimate controlled garage. Protected from the rain, and weather but not temperature.

Also the past few times I have gone to start it(over the past month, since it has gotten cold) It has been quite tough to start and hold an Idle.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:21 pm

I'm assuming this is a flat tappet model? If so the stripped bolt is a non issue as your bike will of done its tappets. This will be obvious when the cambox is pulled.

The refusal to idle from cold is a classic sign of failed tappets.

Can you set the Pistons up at TDC compression as you would if you were setting the valves and take a picture of where the tappets and pushrods poke out of the top of the cambox and post it up please?

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:04 pm

Dumb question- How do I know if it is the flat tappet model.

Will post a picture of the pistons at TDC in the next day or so... Unfortunately away from my bike for now and not sure If I can get to it tomorrow.

Oil in crankcase is not milky, just in breather system and cylinder.

Oil level was quite full, at or over the top fill line on dipstick. Would this be negative to GRiSO?
Thanks for the advice kind of freaking out right now but I'm sure Ill be able to fix this and glad I found this before I continued riding.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:28 pm

Too full of oil and it will be pumping a shitload, (Technical term.) into the airbox. Never run it over halfway up the stick.

Yes, it's a pain in the arse about the flat tappets and yes I was wrong to defend the design for so long but that's just the way the cards fell. I wasn't going to condemn it without evidence. I now have evidence.

Whe. You rollerise you replace the camboxes so the buggered thread is a non issue. Get your ducks in a row vis-a-vis your service history and hopefully you'll get a free kit and just have to pay for install.

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:18 am

Will check on TAppets ASAP... But talk to me about this free kit. How do I get it, I have service history from previous owner. Every small problem was detailed. Most was fixed by owner. I have continued trend and added everything I did/saw. I also have paperwork from 25k service with all notes.
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:46 pm

Ok.. Take a look at the tappets tell me what you think


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Right tap.


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Left tappet


Went thru and decided to clean the airbox at the lowest point where the intake manifolds connect.
A nice puddle of oil there. Thoughts?
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:47 pm

also, opened up left cylinder head.. some mayo in there but not as bad as right cylinder.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:13 pm

Can you get a pic looking down at an angle on the top of the cambox? What I'm trying to see is if the tops of the tappets are proud of the cambox surface. In the upper pic at least it looks like the one on the left is no longer protruding as the one on the right is. If this is the case it's a pretty good indicator that the foot of the tappet is wearing away.

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:40 pm

Ok ran out to the garage and took some more pics... I'm getting quicker at taking this head cover off.
all of these are of the right tappet

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:50 pm

Yup, but the piston isn't at TDC compression, you can see the valves are partly open.

Good angle but the valves need to be closed like when you does the valve lash adjust.

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:37 pm

Ok. Tried for TDc again.. Think I got it a little beter this time. Thoughts? are tappets a sudden failure part or are they an eventual wear down till they don't work part.

Also, the cylinder cover bolt- Is that an M6? I need to buy a heli coil kit

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:09 pm

It's hard to tell but one of them looks a little bit lower than the other. Having said that I would pull a cam box to inspect anyway as it is almost certain the tappets will be history and the longer you leave it the greater the risk of terminal damage to your motor.

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:39 am

Ok.. Just to follow up on this thread...

Drained the oil from the dealer.. It was most definitely over filled.

Replaced it(and OEM guzzi oil filter) with exactly 3L Motul 10W60. Nice and red so I can see where it is.

Also cleaned out blow by system. (and air box, there was a pool of oil in there)

After cleaning blow by system and cylinder heads, I did not have a lot of chocolate milk in cylinder heads/blwo by system, and air box was bone dry(like it should be)

Took a can of de-greaser to the bike Sunday afternoon. Took it out for about 30`40 miles yesterday.

Parked at the gym and saw just a drop of mess on the ground- like there normally is I thought not a big deal. After an hour came out and there was a pretty significant puddle on the ground.

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Found what I believe is the main leak point... I can definitely see the flow path to bottom of engine.. will flow down there and drip by oil sump return pipe.

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^^^What is this soft hole for??

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Flow path somewhat visible ^^^  Unsure of if the oil is just flowing that way from the black hole of if it is also coming from the bottom of the clutch

I noticed oil buildup around the fitting on the return pipe- however it did not feel wet higher along

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There IS oil in the gearbox.... I unscrewed plug and took a look... Engine oil has no noticeable difference in the level. Normally It is just a drop or 2 when I park it in my garage (forgot to look at my floor when I left for work this morning so I don't know if It left me a big pool again). I did park it slightly uphill at the gym last night... but  I doubt that would make a difference.  

No loud valve noise, bike does not run noticeably any differently. P/O redid rear main seal before I purchased it. Again, took it to dealer for 25K service, started noticing oil buildup and problems after this... Floor of my garage was bone dry and did not have this problem before.

Help? advice? any more trouble shooting I should do. I'm unsure of what my issue is and not positive on how to proceed with this.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:40 am

What year model is it? If it's had its rear main seal replaced already I hope the shop that did the work knew not to use a gasket on the rear main bearing housing if they removed the flange to do the seal.

Early bikes had issues with a poorly machined flange and the two bottom bolts that secure it being too long. This lead to the flange leaking but not the seal but the seal is sometimes suspected of being the culprit.

There are basically only a few leak points in the bell housing/clutch area. If it is engine oil then it can only be the bearing flange, the main seal or one of the two o-rings that seal the tensioner bolt cover for the left hand cylinder and the idler shaft cover plate.

If it is gear oil then it is either escaping from the input shaft seal, (Unlikely.) or creeping down the clutch pushrod past the pushrod seals.

In this case I fear that it is most likely to be engine oil and to fix it it's an engine out/gearbox and clutch off job.

I'll try and post some pics up later.

Pete
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b3177h
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:35 am

Bike is a 2009. I have complete service history for it. Work was done by owner. He did not take it into a shop. I did not have this issue for the first 5K+ miles I rode it from owner(until after I took it in for service). Just noticed it in December and have not had much time to ride/troubleshoot it until now.

Could these seals going bad be a result of the dealer overfilling the oil?
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