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 Oil/Grease Mess around bike

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b3177h
Grignapoco
Grignapoco


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Age : 24

PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:42 am

- 20,300 - repaired the leak; and performed the following tasks while I was at it (and it was too cold and wet to ride anyway)
- replaced the rear main seal
- replace two bottom flange bolts with bolts that are 5mm shorter
- installed an oversize o-ring from Moto International
- reassembled all flange bolts with thread sealant; new gasket with gray sealant
- installed a new clutch plate (the original was fine, but I figured it was worth the extra money to avoid having to do a clutch job in the future)
- installed new plug wires and coil ends
- installed a stepper motor switch
- cleaned and greased swingarm bearings and installed new seals
- replaced the troublesome quick disconnect fitting on the fuel tank with a straight hose and clamps---this caused problem later.
- changed engine oil
- cleaned throttle bodies and installed new gaskets
- changed transmission oil
- replaced hoses and clamps as needed
- installed new rear brake pads
- installed new rear tire
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b3177h
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:42 am

^^ notes from P/O
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:56 am

My guess is that the problem is the flange gasket. It was deleted after 2009 due to it promoting leaks.

I've had first hand experience of this with a 1200 Sport. I had the engine in and out of that POS about five times before I finally re-read the bulletin, deleted the gasket, used a thin smear of Threebond 1211 and the issue vanished! Drove me bonkers! Check the depth of the oil feed dowel in the flange while you're in there. There was a batch that were poorly machined so the dowel was too long meaning that even with the gasket or without it the flange couldn't seal.

Pete
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Dilliw
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:18 am

I still don't see in this saga where the flat tappets have been addressed and to me that would be issue No. 1. My EV leaked engine oil from the weep port and the timing inspection hole for years before Wayne (not me) was able to find the source. He still calls my bike the Valdez! At 25k on flat tappets though, I'd be working that issue pronto.

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LBC Tenni
Nibbio
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:36 pm

Dilliw is correct. Rollerise the bike ASAP and sort the rest later. My flats were shot at only 6k miles. At 25k you may already have DLC and tappet fragments doing real damage in there. Do yourself a favor and rollerise before you ride it any more.

Here is the thread showing the wear on mine at 6k:

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Belfastguzzi
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:00 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
What year model is it? If it's had its
...rear main seal replaced...

Early bikes had issues with a
...poorly machined flange...
and the two bottom bolts that secure it being too long. This lead to the flange leaking but not the seal but the seal is sometimes suspected of being the culprit.

Pete

Oh what?
More things I need to beat with a big hammer?

signed
Mr First Iteration 2008 Model 8V
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b3177h
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:23 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but signs of tappets wearing are the valves clearances needing to be adjusted frequently. P/O notes that he never needed to adjust more than one valve during 6k services, it was a different valve each time and never out of spec more than 1 thousandth.

I'm trying to troubleshoot this problem by giving all the information I have about this bike. Not saying it's not tappets, Just want to provide the most information so I can get the correct answer to my problems, get them fixed and get back on the road with confidence.
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Belfastguzzi
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:00 am

Signs of tappets wearing?
The gap measurement for sure.
Previous owner's history doesn't matter. When they go, they go quickly.

Hear:
A lot of clattering noise from heads

Then visually check inside:
Clearances open drastically
you can check the height of the tappet feet sitting in cambox as Pete has talked about but should really proceed to inspection of the tappet bowl bases anyway. It doesn't take long to do.
Almost guaranteed that there will be signs of central wear, if not complete removal of a depth of steel material right across the foot/feet.

This inspection should be made even if you don't think the gaps are opening much.
As everyone is saying now, even if no wear is apparent just at this time, replacement of the flat tappets should be proceeded with because you don't know when they will go.




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Belfastguzzi
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:23 am

The central wear – and complete destruction. I reckon it doesn't take long to go from one to the other.

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Belfastguzzi
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:36 am

I have looked at the photos in the link you posted: same thing – one foot with central wear and the other completely gone.

BTW the pics of the oil emulsion mayonnaise are nothing at all compared to what I see all the time. I would be ecstatically delighted if the various Guzzi's internals had ever shown so clean. The inside of my covers become slathered with thick butter and elsewhere is equally bad: head, sump, vents....
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b3177h
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:59 am

Understood about the Tappets. But I'm also worried about the oil leak.

For my thinking now let's assume they are 2 different problems. I never had an issue with insides of the covers slathered with mayonnaise until winter time.
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Dilliw
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:41 am

For the oil leak your pictures show that there is engine oil (looks like engine oil) inside the bell housing.  It will come out through the slot on the bottom and  if you run it long enough will seep out of the timing inspection hole.  Pete gave you the various sources  in a post above and you just don't know which one it will be until you pull the transmission.

The mistake we made on mine was having a preconceived idea that it was the rear main seal.  We replaced the seal, buttoned it back up, and it kept on leaking.  Not fun... All of the fixes are pretty easy once you get there though.
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LBC Tenni
Nibbio
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:33 am

b3177h wrote:
Understood about the Tappets. But I'm also worried about the oil leak.  

For my thinking now let's assume they are 2 different problems. I never had an issue with insides of the covers slathered with mayonnaise until winter time.

The oil leak is an annoyance that can wait. The tappets are an engine wrecker that must be done ASAP. It is certain your tappets are shot to hell with the mileage on your bike. Please rollerise before you ride it any further. Take your service history paperwork to the best dealer you can get to and you may get the parts for free.
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b3177h
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:47 am

Taking it to local dealer this week.

On a side note it is OKAY to ride with oil leak... Let's assume it is worst case scenario will I still be fine to ride as long as I have oil in the sump. The oil leaking won't be detrimental to any other components.
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Dilliw
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:07 am

My experience is with my EVT and not a GRiSO but... according to my mileage chart mine started leaking at around 53k miles, the first attempt to fix was at 67k miles, and the second and finally got it fix was at 77k. So other than marking spots on Earth with a little black piss it did no harm for at least 25k miles.

And it looks like a lot of oil but it isn't. That's why it doesn't measure much on the dipstick.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:13 am

The oil leak and the tappets are two different issues. I've explained about the oil leak and the sources, sorry, to tackle it is an engine out job.

The tappet are a completely separate issue but the reality is that all flat tappets will eventually fail. David's experience with moisture in his engine once again confirms my belief that the problem is greatly exacerbated and accelerated in cool, damp climates due to over cooling and the inability for the motor to expell water vapour through the breather system.

The valve gaps will only start to open up significantly in the final, terminal stages of the failure when all the DLC has gone. I was deeply skeptical of the issue until I started seeing failures here but my skepticism led to me completely destroying my engine. My valve clearances didn't change appreciably right up until the end at 90,000Km and the DLC tappets had been in for 68,000Km but they'd shedding did for the bottom end. Since then every Flattie I get through gets inspected or my tools stay in the box. I haven't had one yet that shows up as healthy. Waiting and hoping isn't going to alter the issue and will, if left unaddressed, cost you your engine.

Pete
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b3177h
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:50 am

Ok. Will report findings once tappets get looked at.
Assuming my Flat tappets are failed/failing would the best course of action be:

Rollerize engine>
Continue to ride see if oil leak continues

or just rolerize engine and drop it to see what leaks/bad seals we have and repair them?

Better to do 2 things at once or just one at a time? I do not have the mechanical confidence to remove engine.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:49 am

By far the easiest option would be to drop the donk and do it on the bench. To cure the leak the gearbox and clutch are going to need to come off. Unlike a Tonti you can't 'Crab' a GRiSO frame, it has to be separated from the motor to allow removal of the gearbox and since that is the case it will be much easier to fling the lump up onto a workbench and tackle both rollerisation and leak at the same time.

It will need rollerising and the sump needs dropping for a clean and inspect. Once again this is easy with the motor loose on the bench. The leak will almost certainly be the flange which needs a special tool to remove safely, once again, easier on the bench.

It will be a big, time consuming job. There is no point in making it a difficult one as well by cutting corners. You want to make sure it's done RIGHT because if you don't you'll be doing it again.

Pete

PS. The leak and the tappet problems are completely separate issues and not connected in any way.

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b3177h
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:01 pm

Updates: Bike is at the shop now should get it back this week. DLC coating on one of the cam followers showed signs of wear... so looks like I'm gonna be a roller now. Had 25k service at dealer and records of what had been done previously.. Looks like that saved me the $1500 in parts..

As for the oil... yup seals and flange were bad. Getting replaced and should be back on the road.

All in all much more expensive than the first couple bike I owned, but hey I plan on keeping this bike. Rollers should be good for at least another 30K right??

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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:09 pm

30k! no, more like 130K++
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b3177h
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:12 pm

Ill see if i can take it all the way to 130k!
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:25 pm

Lol...30K more miles?? There are no report of failures on the roller mills regarding on how many miles currently documented.

I'm kinda curious to see what is the highest miles on a roller bike at the moment...
The roller tappets were introduced mid 2012 so I'm sure that someone has 50K miles or better on one of those engines.
I put 36K miles on my 09 (bought it in 2010) in less than 3 years then I got the 2013 replacement, and while it's way above average riding in the US, there are folks that ride much more than that so I know that a high mileage roller bike is out there...maybe a Stelvio.
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PostSubject: Re: Oil/Grease Mess around bike   Today at 1:42 am

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