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 In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?

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muzhik
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PostSubject: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:47 am

...and by "soon," I mean in the next 9 months -ish. I've been kicking around the idea for a couple years now - not in a big hurry.

Cliche as it seems, I'm pretty determined that my GRiSO has to be a Tenni 8V/SE - which if in not mistaken in the U.S. limits me to an '11 or a '12. I haven't called anyone when I've come across for sale ads, but it seems like the prices range from "How can it be that cheap?" to "How can he expect MORE than the original MSRP?"

What should I look for, and what should I stay away from? Looking for GRiSO-specific stuff, here.

I already know a little about the roller cam conversion controversy from doing some reading on this forum lately. What I don't know is how long Piaggio is extending the warranty on these cases. Are they using a mileage-only determination? Years since original purchase? I know either way I'll need the original owner to provide full service history records if I want to have warranty as an option. Ideally, it seems, I'd want to buy one that's already had the conversion done - or pick one up at the on the cheap side and be ready to spend the $1K+ for a kit.

Also, it seems I'll want one with the original factory exhaust or proof that the aftermarket exhaust was done in conjunction with a proper tune.

Since they're hard to find, odds are I won't have the luxury of going to see the bike before I have to at least put a deposit down. At the very least, I'll be invested the price of airfare before I ever get to lay eyes on. So with that in mind, what sorts of questions do I need to ask - and what sorts of answers am I looking for?

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:40 am

You've mostly answered your own question: Full service history.

I also wouldn't buy one that has just been rollerized that hasn't done a couple of hundred miles since. We've had a few eat their mains afterwards.

You'll probably be OK with a low mileage unit, <10,000 miles. Still, I'd be asking for an inspection with photographic proof. You'd probably get told to sod off. But, if they want to sell...

Aftermarket exhaust is not too much of a worry, unless it's some weird esoteric pipe. We can sought you out. I'd also steer clear of bikes that have been 'improved' with things like power commanders or Fat Duc's.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:52 am

Yeah, the whole roller thing isn't a 'Warranty' or 'Recall' issue as such, it's more the factory trying to cover up its screw up at as little cost to itself as possible.

In my experience, since I started inspecting every flat tappet bike that comes into the shop, they will all be showing wear by 10,000 Km and the like Niger it's left the greater the chance of further, more serious, damage being caused.

The service history thing is important and has to be completed on both time and distance so make sure if you are buying sight unseen that it has one. The owner should be able to text pics of the service book or receipts for service to you easily enough. Alternatively just bite the bullet and do the conversion yourself but do do it sooner rather than later.

Pete
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tocino
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:36 pm

muzhik, where in Maryland are you?
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guzziownr
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:27 pm

Is there a solid build date/vin # for the roller bikes?

I will be looking at low mileage SE bikes come the Spring here in the North East U.S.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:33 pm

there is a build date cutoff but it isn't reliable. Best way to tell is to pop off a rocker cover and have a looksee. The change was supposed to happen june/july 2012 but anything pre 2012 will be a flattie unless its already been rollerised.

Pete
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muzhik
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:58 pm

tocino wrote:
muzhik, where in Maryland are you?

I'm in Frederick County and commute to Ft. Meade. Getting ready to hang up my boots after 20 years this spring. A GRiSO would be a dandy retirement gift!
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H-E-ROSS
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:27 pm

I know of a '12 non-rollerised low mileage Tenni w/ original exhaust that will be for sale. It is located in Massachusetts. I will be happy to pass along your info to the owner if you want to PM it to me.
I ultimately decided to go for a '13 to avoid the above mentioned hassle. I have to say though I find the Tenni very attractive and this example is perfect excluding the possible or inevitable problem lurking.
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muzhik
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:41 am

H-E-ROSS wrote:
I know of a '12 non-rollerised low mileage Tenni w/ original exhaust that will be for sale. It is located in Massachusetts. I will be happy to pass along your info to the owner if you want to PM it to me.
I ultimately decided to go for a '13 to avoid the above mentioned hassle. I have to say though I find the Tenni very attractive and this example is perfect excluding the possible or inevitable problem lurking.

Not ready to pull the trigger just yet. I need to make sure I have a job moving forward, first. That's the problem with maturity - it comes with all these "priorities" and this ""moral" "compass."" Rolling Eyes

Though Mass isn't too far away, I suppose. I made two trips up there with my family when we moved back from Russia a year or so ago to get a pup from a breeder outside Boston. Thought we had carefully selected that one, but he turned out to be a basket case anyway.

Here's hoping for better luck on the GRiSO!

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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:14 am

Sorry, I was off by a year.  The GRiSOs went roller (for the most part) in April of 2012.

Piaggio reports thse serial numbers, but there have been exceptions:



Stelvio AC:  After 12596  03/12/2012
GRiSO A8:  After 13524  04/12/2012
Norge AA:  After 12214  04/18/2012


Roper had the correct date, I had a brain fart...


guzziownr wrote:
Is there a solid build date/vin # for the roller bikes?

I will be looking at low mileage SE bikes come the Spring here in the North East U.S.

Semi-solid mid '13 '12 (mine for instance) you could have hard certainty on a'13, '14 or '15, pop a top on any '13 '12...

All Tenni SEs are 2012 2011 build and as a rule are flat tappet.

If you want a roller Tenni you have three options:

1.  Buy a Tenni and perform the roller conversion.

2.  Buy a roller and source some Tenni bodywork.

3.  Buy a roller and find a good painter to replicate.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special


Last edited by Steak on Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:04 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : I reported 2013 rather than 2012... Sorry.)
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muzhik
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:11 am

I realize you're quoting guzziownr, but here's my own position:

I'd need to source the seat as well for option 2. I think in the long run that would be more expensive than option 1. I haven't looked into it, though - but figure a tank plus the (at least) 4 other pieces (fairings, fender and rear section) would be over a grand. Then the seat can't be cheap or easy to find. Option 3 might wind up being the safest route, but is even less "authentic" than the others.

I'd rather have the "real deal" and do the conversion. I enjoy turning wrenches anyway.

What are the odds of finding a stuffed / totaled '14 or '15 and getting the factory roller motor from it? I have no idea how much a 'junkyard' Guzzi engine would cost, but $1,000+ seems awful expensive for a couple cam boxes.
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John Lyon
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:50 pm

beetle wrote:
I also wouldn't buy one that has just been rollerized that hasn't done a couple of hundred miles since. We've had a few eat their mains afterwards.

I presume the mains might go due to metal in the oil from to the prior damage, but it's strange to me that they would choose to go immediately after rollarization.  Is this triggered somehow by the conversion work?
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muzhik
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:40 pm

John Lyon wrote:
beetle wrote:
I also wouldn't buy one that has just been rollerized that hasn't done a couple of hundred miles since. We've had a few eat their mains afterwards.

I presume the mains might go due to metal in the oil from to the prior damage, but it's strange to me that they would choose to go immediately after rollarization.  Is this triggered somehow by the conversion work?

My "educated guess" is this might be a similar case to changing the automatic transmission fluid in a car that's been neglected (back in the days before "sealed for life" transmissions). The reasoning goes that new, clean fluid loosens up all of the old varnished fluid and friction material that was effectively working as a "stop leak" to mitigate the damage caused by not changing the fluid and filter at the recommended service interval. Once all of that gunk is flushed through by new fluid, slipping bands and other shifting issues weren't far behind.

The rollerizing procedure calls for back-flushing the oil cooler, dropping the sump, etc. Might that flush out some of the "gunk" that was in the mains simultaneously causing excessive wear on them and at the same time keeping them from having too much play?

I could be just making a false connection, though.
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:52 pm

As things start to wear, as in the case of the DLC in the top end, small particles migrate to wherever the oil system takes them. Flushing the oil system might go towards getting rid of these particles, but it will not remove them all. Big ends, as you are aware, require a good flow of good quality oil at the right pressure - Havin DLC mixed in is only going to end badly.

Remove, inspect, replace is a safe move - putting the originals back in is asking for trouble - crank gone too, perhaps? Sounds like $$$$$ to me, when it could have been avoided by bearing replacement early on.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:58 pm

John Lyon wrote:


I presume the mains might go due to metal in the oil from to the prior damage, but it's strange to me that they would choose to go immediately after rollarization.  Is this triggered somehow by the conversion work?

IMO it's not the conversion, but the timing. Chances are the big ends would have gone anyway. That's why you should check your flatties now. Don't hesitate.
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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:00 pm

muzhik wrote:

****

What are the odds of finding a stuffed / totaled '14 or '15 and getting the factory roller motor from it?  I have no idea how much a 'junkyard' Guzzi engine would cost, but $1,000+ seems awful expensive for a couple cam boxes.  

My brother just totaled his '14 Norge. C.12K miles.  Engine entirely unaffected.

I am looking into getting it from Progressive for parts.

Should know within week or so. If works out, will bring it up from Atlanta, probably in February.  I live NW of Winchester.  Let me know if interested.

Bill
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John Lyon
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:21 pm

beetle wrote:
IMO it's not the conversion, but the timing. Chances are the big ends would have gone anyway. That's why you should check your flatties now. Don't hesitate.

Eeks - not good.  That changes the "wait and see" equation considerably.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:54 pm

Really, don't wait.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:58 pm

Bill Hagan wrote:
muzhik wrote:

****

What are the odds of finding a stuffed / totaled '14 or '15 and getting the factory roller motor from it?  I have no idea how much a 'junkyard' Guzzi engine would cost, but $1,000+ seems awful expensive for a couple cam boxes.  

My brother just totaled his '14 Norge. C.12K miles.  Engine entirely unaffected.

I am looking into getting it from Progressive for parts.

Should know within week or so. If works out, will bring it up from Atlanta, probably in February.  I live NW of Winchester.  Let me know if interested.

Bill

Bill, while your brother's smash is obviously the greatest concern well done for looking ahead with this. There are going to be lots of folks getting hung out to dry by Piaggio who will be needing a helping hand.

Only wish it was here, we could slip it into Ralf's bike.

Pete
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Ralf z
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:14 pm

I keep checking pickles salvage site..
Even thought about selling as is.
Il make my mind up soon..
Good part is I have my uncles bike that lives at my place that I ride.
But all the bikes I look at and have owned the GRiSO is still my favourite.

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muzhik
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:32 am

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:
As things start to wear, as in the case of the DLC in the top end, small particles migrate to wherever the oil system takes them. Flushing the oil system might go towards getting rid of these particles, but it will not remove them all. Big ends, as you are aware, require a good flow of good quality oil at the right pressure - Havin DLC mixed in is only going to end badly.

...

Could be that flushing doesn't get rid of the particles entirely, but dislodges them and a fair amount migrate to smaller passageways (like the journals for the big ends) - causing the equivalent of an aneurysm from a blood clot dislodging in your body. Perhaps the "end badly" that you are implying.
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muzhik
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PostSubject: Re: In the Market for a Used G12 Soon - Advice?   Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:56 am

Bill Hagan wrote:
muzhik wrote:

****

What are the odds of finding a stuffed / totaled '14 or '15 and getting the factory roller motor from it?  I have no idea how much a 'junkyard' Guzzi engine would cost, but $1,000+ seems awful expensive for a couple cam boxes.  

My brother just totaled his '14 Norge. C.12K miles.  Engine entirely unaffected.

I am looking into getting it from Progressive for parts.

Should know within week or so. If works out, will bring it up from Atlanta, probably in February.  I live NW of Winchester.  Let me know if interested.

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for the offer.  Sorry to read about your brother's loss.  Hopefully he fared as well as the engine in the ordeal.

Edit: Just saw your "My Brother Hits the Road..." thread. Here's hoping for a speedy recovery!
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