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 Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble

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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
Carlotto


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Join date : 2016-02-09

PostSubject: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:22 pm

It's a postman bringing new part for bike day tomorrow! Got a Zard arriving, a road legal with cat and baffle stainless steel version. I'm ready with my Guzzidiag tech and wondering if any of you guys have any different maps I can try, or be advised to use. It's a 2011 SE 8V and the exhaust is the road legal with cat.
Cheers J Very Happy


Last edited by Yodasoldier on Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:03 pm

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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
Carlotto


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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:31 am

So ...tomorrow came, Zard has arrived yay ! But on the down side, took the bike out this morning (Zard not fitted yet) and all was good until about 5 miles and the bike started back firing, then throttle response started to become a bit jerky, minutes later running lumpy and felt as though the bike was running out of fuel until it become unrideable, didn't cut out, idles fine, just unrideable. Bike starts and idles just bad response from throttle. Revs rise if you slowly turn throttle, but any sort of normal riding use its as if its not getting fuel. So had to get bike picked up. I'm suspecting fuel pump hoses or pump hosing as when shining a torch into fuel tank can I see the filter and hose attached to the pump ok but what looks like lots of bubbles of air being created. Will have to remove tank tomorrow. Not really the day I had planned! Crying or Very sad
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:43 pm

Sounds like one of the spark plug caps is damaged and its arcing to the rocker cover. Take the lead covers off and start the bike . Look and listen for the spark snapping to earth.

Pete
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:32 pm

Hi Pete,
Thanks for the reply will look at that first as it sounds easier than the fuel pump out. Seeing bubbles in the tank is that normal ? Happy Birthday for the other day ...it's mine tomorrow!
J
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:58 am

Checked the plug caps no sound of or spark arcing, carefully removed the caps and examined tubes no sign of arcing marks. So removed fuel filler cap to get a better looks inside at the fuel pump. It definitely is blowing bubbles when priming and when idling, bigger bubbles when you operate the throttle. Idles fine but Boggs and cuts out with throttle. Speeking to a Guzzi dealer/ workshop friend of a friend , thinks the issue is the pump hoses as he said there should definitely be no bubbles or movement in the fuel. Fuel tank off, quick release hose connector ..ha ha.. Indeed.. So the tip there is to use a tool for the job of disconnecting (borrowed from neighbours car workshop) and sure enough it worked a treat! Fuel pump removed and all looks ok with no loose hoses Sad so next job to test fuel pump in a bucket of fuel. Will let the technicians do that .... The plot thickens. Been a great bike the few weeks it's been working....... Sad '
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:54 pm

Yoda, simple toolless method for detaching fuel line.
1. Lift tank and disconnect pump wires.
2. Turn on key, try to start ............. releases all pressure in the line.
3. Push/pull and off comes the fuel line.

Fuel pressure regulator stuffed?

When you test in a bucket, test it fully submerged and then gradually extract it.
I've had a pin hole in a car fuel line before. Fully submerged it had a head of pressure and resistance to the pressure of the leak. Half empty tank with pin hole above fuel level, I would lose fuel pressure and get pinging.
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beetle
GRiSO
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:02 pm

Phase sensor?
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:36 pm

cheers guys, the fuel hose coupling was realy stuck, apparently the connector is widely used in the car industry and there are little plier like tools to open these easily. Depressurised the system and tried at first pushing pulling, four different people got involved all having a go, watched a YouTube tutorial, it was just stuck. The tool did the job in the end!
So guys it's the bubbles being created by the pump  in the tank which make me think this is where my problem is. Can't be right..right? Are the symptoms I'm getting of starting and idling normal but any throttle and the bike dies related to a phase sensor issue? If so guess it's something else to try if the pump test proves to be fruitless.  I have a nice shiny Zard exhaust waiting to be fitted ...hope I get this sorted soon Rolling Eyes
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:49 pm

Got any errors or a service warning? A phase sensor error will throw up an error 54.
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
Carlotto


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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:07 pm

That's the weird thing, no service warning or codes. Tomorrow the fuel pump test fingers crossed will show a leak, which I suspect will be from the higher bent hose. Looking at the configuration the fuel pump and hoses and filter are the updated cable tied, together with the short hose at the bottom. Can't believe the cost of a new unit looks like it's bodged together form cheaply sourced parts. Anybody know of any possible upgrade if it is the pump causing my woes ?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:58 pm

If it's the FPRV, (They rust.) let me know and I'll pinch one out of a dead pump assembly for you. Have you checked the plug caps.
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:20 am

Hi Pete, thanks for that, is that relief valve? Checked plug caps first after you suggested it could be the problem but all seemed fine. no sign or sound of arcing. As I have said the bubbles in the tank coming out of the pump when it primes and the engine is running surely can't be normal. Has anyone noticed this on their own bike ? Requires shining a torch into tank and viewing the pump at an angle through the filler.
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
Carlotto


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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:26 am

So had time today to replace fuel lines in the pump filter assembly and also the line from the fuel tank connector to the injection t piece as there were two nasty folds, bends in the line. bike started up fine ...but ...still the same problem.. Give the Throttle a twist and the bike coughs and splutters and sounds sick... Sad face.  wired it up to a Texa Palm unit and actually found two error faults
 
Throttle actuator position sensor

CAN line "Mute knot"
U1601
Mute node

So maybe my throttle position sensor is shot ?

Guess the symptoms point to that being a problem?

Having Spoken with a Couple of Guzzi dealers. both say have never seen a TPS fail on a GRiSO. But 2 dealers out of 1000's ain't no sure thing. One dealer did say they have seen this kind of behaviour before on some bikes, and after re-flashing the ECU with a new updated firmware or software the problem went away. Sounds odd to me that the bike just decided one day it wasn't playing with the ECU.

Zard sat in its box silent.....


Last edited by Yodasoldier on Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:50 am

Well if it's throwing up a TPS code that's the obvious place to start. Have you got Guzzidiag? If so hook it up and watch the TPS reading as you open the throttle, (Engine not running.) if it hesitates or fluctuates wildly at any given point it will indicate a problem.

The mute node is simply indicating a communications error between the dash and ECU I would guess, ie, it's had a brain-fart. Unlikely to be relevant to the poor running.

Pete
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:39 am

Thanks Pete, yeah I have Guzzidiag but it wasn't showing me any codes, maybe I didn'trun the diagnostic code search correct. The readout on the Texa, reading from the throttle position sensor seemed a bit weird. closed was 4.8 ...didn't seem to go past 35 with full throttle. Do the TPS have known issues?, do they get dirty, affected by rain? Will have a quick look at it tomorrow as its all back together know. Your tip of removing the injector lines when removing the tank does make it a whole lot easier to remove the tank. Doing battle with the connector with your hands between the tank and bike is a pain. It also allowed me to see the knackered fuel line. I carefully cut the plastic hose off and used the fuel line and crimp pipe clips that I had left over, from the pump filter line replacement job I did.

Although the bike is off the road at the moment the general experience of taking bits apart has made me realise how easy these bikes are to work on for general maintenance 'in comparison to some bikes I've owned.


Last edited by Yodasoldier on Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:40 pm

Well that sounds like it might be the problem then. The TPS reading should gradually increase to (?)86* from memory. It's simply a rheostat but it has obviously shorted out or the contact has been lost.

Not a problem I've ever encountered and I have to say I don't know how the TPS comes out of the TB's but if you can remove it without destroying it I have several spares in sets of dead TB's I'll see if I can get one out for you.

Pete
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:56 pm

I will plug the bike into guzzidiag tomorrow to see and check the TPS readings. Will also check the TPS plug. Looks like they just bolt on to the top of the throtle body. Pete, If you do have a spare one that would be great. Let me know what you want it. Cheers....the Zard will sing soon....
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:12 pm

Yodasoldier, make sure you are looking at the correct model (in the config) for GuzziDiag. Pulling the wrong model will give you wierd readings...
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Mon Mar 07, 2016 2:27 pm

Cheers Oz, will double check next time i use it.
Looking into the throttle position sensor for Moto guzzis and have found this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Is this correct?... a bit more searching reveals the same part at
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So it would seem that the Throttle sensor is a common car part  PF1C, it is a part available for about £40,
or less if not Magneti Marelli.

Moto Guzzi want over £200.
Gutsibits £120

Shocked
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:36 pm

Yoda, if you look at the first TPS link of yours, its 2 mounting holes are slotted. This is so it can be manually positioned for correct closed throttle reading. This one is for Cali Ev's & Bellagios etc.

The second link (Gutsibits) is for the GRiSO TPS. Its is fixed in position, as in the holes are not slotted. It is adjusted digitally via diag.
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:13 am

Cheers Ghezzi, looked at the TPS today it's different. It's a smaller one without bolts to hold it in place. after a quick search on google it's still an easy to get hold of TPS used in Ducatis and Fiat cars: Part number is Magneti Marrelli IPF2CB or IPF2C/B or Fiat part number 71738921. Again a great difference in price depending on who's selling it.
Tested the TPS today with Guzzidiag, the TPS started at 4.6 and would only go to 25 sometimes only reaching 18. The increase in number as the throttle was turned didn't appear to be jerky or jump at random but still indicates a problem. So I have a ordered a TPS IPF2CB on eBay from Italy for just over £30 including post. will report back once fitted ....IF I can get the old one out!
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:34 am

BINGO! new TPS installed and we are all good, runs and rides better than ever!!!! The old TPS was very easy to remove with a small bladed screw driver to prise it out from the TB by its little plastic ears, was just the side fairing that needed to be removed. On removal of old TPS there was alot of white corrosion inside, obviously water damage, tapped the throttle on the bench and small amount of water came out. New TPS pushed and clicked into place connected and reset via guzzidiag and thats the end of the problem. I put a little red silicon grease on the new tps to hopefully deter moister getting in from the the top. In the end the TPS I ordered from italy turned out to be a non Magneti Morelli so i cancelled the order (would of probably worked fine). I found a Magneti Morelli one for £69 posted on ebay it arrived in under 24 hours. Moto guzzi really need to sort out the price they charge for this part, no excuses, their price of over £220 plus vat is OUT OF ORDER. So part is Magneti Morelli IPF2CB or IPF2C/B (both the same, some list it without the / ). ...Now, where was I .....ZAAAAAAAARD!


Last edited by Yodasoldier on Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Yodasoldier
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Zard arrives tomorrow! Suspected TPS trouble   Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:01 am

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There we go. Running great, no bangs or pops or flat spots / hesitations. Not over loud just the right amount of growl. Only covered 30 miles so far but if it stays like this don't really see any need for a different map for this exhaust. cheers

Big thank you to all that chipped in with advice on the running issue. A lesson learned for me, when a dealer says "it won't be the TPS I've never see one fail" don't be too sure..... Hmmm tappets...?
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