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godge
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 25
Join date : 2016-06-17

PostSubject: cam box help needed   Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:50 pm

Hi Guys

Getting myself ready for rollerising, already figured out TB balance and TPS reset thanks to all the advice on the forum.
My bike being a 2009 production model it should be a c kit according to Mr Roper but I have still not checked the cylinder for the drill marks.
Been looking at B kit and add the other bits as this seems much cheaper method.( why is the c kit so much more expensive am I missing something)
Just need a little help regarding floating or non floating cam boxes as I'm still a bit confused what the difference is, any help much appreciated.
I don't want to rush in and buy the wrong kit.
Also whats the purpose of the tang if that's what its called that's on the nut above the cam chain.

Thanks guys, loving the site I think I'm addicted.

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Pete Roper
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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:16 pm

The tang is an earth. The rocker covers aren't earthed as they are separated from the head by the rocker cover gasket and the plug tube is carried in o-rings. If the spark tries to arc, if the plug caps are damaged say, then how is the spark going to get to earth? The tang is another line of protection along with the plastic covers on the back of the rocker covers. It prevents the spark arcing to earth through your knee! Not fun if you're hooking into a corner at speed! When you rollerise that tang is discarded and another more elegant one is used that goes on the two bolts of the rocker retaining plate.

Yes your bike needs a 'C' kit. The reason that the 'C' kit is much more expensive is that it contains three sets of head gaskets and a variety of other parts.

Pete
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godge
Carlotto
Carlotto


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Join date : 2016-06-17

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:31 pm

Thanks Pete, that's what its for then, that would not be nice Shocked Shocked . But the c kit is a lot more expensive than buying a b kit and buying the rest of the parts individually, should I just buy the middle size head gaskets are these 0.85mm ?

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paulbrice
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 91
Join date : 2015-01-04

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:15 am

Depends what prices you can get if you go full C or B plus bits. I have 2009 GRiSO but it had already had replacement flat tappets and switched to floating cam box when I bought it (so I needed 'B' kit for the cam box) BUT I still needed head off and valve shims as it was still '09' vintage. I just took the middle size gasket. My total bits bill was €1100 and just ahead of Brexit so came to about GBP 940 all from TLM incl postage. May depend if UK has old stock to get better forex

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paulbrice
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 91
Join date : 2015-01-04

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Mon Jul 18, 2016 1:22 am

Pete covered elsewhere but remember if you go B kit you will need two short plug tubes, 4 plug tube o-rings and two different cam covers. In Pete's analysis the new cam covers were cheaper but when I looked (before I realised I already had B-kit set up); I couldn't find any difference in old vz new cam cover prices in UK or europe...
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:50 am

Errr! Haven't checked but it should be 'A' kit plus rocker covers and the rest of the munt. 'B' kit is just 'C' kit minus shims, gaskets and seals.

I did a post on this in another thread.

The middle gaskets will generally work fine but far better to just wait until you lift a head and see what's in there.

Pete
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paulbrice
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:18 am

My mistake - it even says A kit in my BOM !
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godge
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 25
Join date : 2016-06-17

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:25 pm

Thanks for all the replies, I'm still a little confused, so if I buy a b kit and add head gaskets, shims, seals , inlet and exhaust gaskets ill still need cam covers?
I can buy a b kit for just over £600 but a c kit is £1200
I can buy the head gaskets, shims and seals for just over £150 so why is the c kit so expensive, am I missing something ?
Sorry If I am going over old ground.
Thanks in advance for all your help.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:34 pm

You don't need new valve covers with the B kit. The C kit has all three thicknesses of available head gaskets, plus the shims etc. that's why it's expensive.

If you buy the A kit, plus all the other bits you need, you will have to buy the new version of valve cover. They only cost 10% of the old version covers.


For your bike:

Buy A Kit you will also need to buy the shims, etc and head gasket and new version valve cover

Buy B kit you will need to buy shims and head gasket, seals etc. Use existing valve covers.

Buy C kit use existing valve covers. No need to buy anything else.


If it were me, I'd buy the A kit and the extra stuff.





.


Last edited by beetle on Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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godge
Carlotto
Carlotto


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Join date : 2016-06-17

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:39 pm

Thanks Beetle, you are my next port of call when I get it done, a nice map will go down a treat. Thanks again.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:28 pm

I did a listing of parts needed to do what I'd consider the 'Best' swap a while back. Rather than using shims you can buy the late model valve springs which will mean you don't need to take the valves out so you can save by not buying the stem seals.

Pete
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paulbrice
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 91
Join date : 2015-01-04

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:52 am

If you go A kit don't forget the short tubes to replace the long ones - 6 quid each at Fowlers.

I can't find the ultra cheap versions of new cam covers Aussies talk about eg Fowlers does (RHS for comparison) 880124 new version for 130 GBP, 872607 old version for 148 GBP. TLM quotes 153 euros for New version and 175 euros for old version - 10% cheaper; not 10% of the price. Heat shield fits both so keep old. Best thing to do is download the parts manuals and compare ! PS valve stem oil seals are only 4 GBP a throw and on reflection I should have done the exhausts as well for my 2009 bike as it only takes few minutes per valve to change once you have head off and compressor anyway.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:00 am

OK, I may have exaggerated the price. New version US$78, old $278. That 30%. Very Happy


The old ones are $334 here. Suspect






.
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paulbrice
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 91
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:19 am

78 USD is amazing cheap and I see exactly as you say on AF1 Racing.....just in UK/Europe I don't see the same delta.....maybe we are special Crying or Very sad
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:31 am

And this is one of the things that the Internet is good for.

Pricing of some items varies extraordinarily from market to market but if I'm buying something with a moderate to high price tag I always find it worth spending a minute or two comparing prices. Sometimes it makes little difference, especially when you factor in the costs of shipping/import duties/taxes but you can also turn up odd discrepancies like the rocker covers that work in your favour.

Pete
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godge
Carlotto
Carlotto


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Join date : 2016-06-17

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:39 pm

Hi Guys

Thanks for everything, just a couple of quick questions I'm sure there will be a few more, anyone got the part number of the up rated/latest valve springs that I can fit. Also when I remove the heads and get the cam chain tensioner on the left pot locked (hopefully)should I just drop the chain down the tunnel, will it be easily picked back up. Thanks again.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:10 pm

B013517 are the valve spring numbers.

As for the chain? Pop the sprocket off the camshaft and cable tie it into the chain. This way you won't loose the timing on the top sprocket. Use the 'Tail' of the cable tie to lower the sprocket down the camchain tunnel once the cambox is off and it will sit happily between the tensioner and guide blade. You can then remove the head and it just sits there.

If you ensure the piston is at TDC before you put the head back on then when you tug the sprocket back up the tunnel you can use a second cable tie to attatch it to the side of the head while you install the new cambox, then cut it free, cut off the other tie and check that the chain hasn't jumped a tooth at the bottom by eyeballing the peg hole. (I haven't seen one yet that has.)

When installing the flinger plate on the end of the cam and sprocket do make sure that the holes in the plate don't align with the peg! Rolling Eyes

Pete
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Ad B
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


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Join date : 2013-10-11
Age : 58

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:00 am

Hi,
beetle wrote:
You don't need new valve covers with the B kit. The C kit has all three thicknesses of available head gaskets, plus the shims etc. that's why it's expensive.
If you buy the A kit, plus all the other bits you need, you will have to buy the new version of valve cover. They only cost 10% of the old version covers.

For your bike:
Buy A Kit you will also need to buy the shims, etc and head gasket and new version valve cover
Buy B kit you will need to buy shims and head gasket, seals etc. Use existing valve covers.
Buy C kit use existing valve covers. No need to buy anything else.

If it were me, I'd buy the A kit and the extra stuff.
Beetle, why would you go for kit A?
Why do you prefer the new version valve covers?

I did my rollerising with kit B  Cool .
Kit B is € 742,37 (Aus $ 1092,18)
Kit A is € 955,27 (Aus $ 1405,39)
4 shims, 4 seals, 2 inlet gaskets, 2 exhaust gaskets, 2 head gaskets about € 120,00.
New type valve covers € 153,49 per piece, plus short tubes and minor things... if you go for kit A...
All TLM prices.
My total costs for my rollerising where about € 865,00 (Aus $ 1272,50) and some time spend with enjoying my hobby...  scratch
My flat tappets where still in good condition, so the rest of my engine too!!

Next week going to enjoy our summer holidays with my love (no, not my G12, but with my wife...)
3 to 4 weeks traveling through western Europe, starting in France  Ooh La La and further following the good weather.
Followed by 2 weeks working...
To follow from 6 till 14 of September to go with Moto Guzziclub Netherlands towards Mandello!!!
To celebrate Guzzi's 95th birthday with some beer, spaghetti and wine...  drunken
Always look at the bright side of life... (sung by a weard men hanging at a cross...  clown )

Ad B
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:16 am

On anything over $1000AU we get hammered with 10% GST plus customs clearance fees. It also delays delivery for a couple of weeks. It's a pain in the arse but there ya go.

The advantage of going with the A kit plus springs, tubes and rocker covers is mainly in the cheaper cost of replacing rocker covers in future if you trowel it. As stated the later type are a fraction of the price of the early type! With an A kit and springs you also don't have to remove the oil seals and Spring seats. Yes, you still have to pull the heads, but you don't need to disturb the seals so they can go round again.

Pete

PS both A and B kits retail for $1230.89 over here. I can't be arsed looking up the prices of all the other bits but combine the hassle, postage costs, import duties etc. and AT THE MOMENT there isn't enough in it to make much of a difference. Previously, when our $ was a lot stronger, it was well worth shopping around. Now? Not so much.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:47 am

Ad B wrote:

Beetle, why would you go for kit A?
Why do you prefer the new version valve covers?


Because I crash a lot.






cheers
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paulbrice
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 91
Join date : 2015-01-04

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:50 am

For the cam sprocket LHS (as sit on bike) went as Pete says (I used a drill bit to hold the tensioner thru hole) using ties to lock sprocket and chain - see pic. On RHS it slipped a tooth at bottom sprocket & I had to adjust.  KEY LEARNING I HAD was to photo everything including sprocket alignment and flywheel position (I marked with white marker) so you can be sure it wasn't a small move from TDC rather than 1 tooth skip at bottom sprocket [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:12 am

Good catch. Oh, you need to thrash it harder, you can see by the oil wash on the piston deck that the rings haven't bedded as well as they might. Twisted Evil

Pete
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paulbrice
Tanabuso
Tanabuso


Posts : 91
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:41 am

At 25k miles bit late in the day to bed the rings I suspect ? .....while I top up the oil to compensate for worn/glazed bores & rings caused by previous owner or cumulative effect of total 8 flat tappets merrily ground into the engine, maybe should look for something else to bed in :-)
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Steve Waller
Carlotto
Carlotto


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Join date : 2014-07-30

PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:13 am

My A kit just cost me 800 quid sterling thanks to the crap exchange rate at the moment.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: cam box help needed   Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:49 am

Jesus! Welcome to Brexit fall-out!
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