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 Avgas, anyone? (stateside)

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ronbo10
Tanabuso
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Age : 58

PostSubject: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:54 am

I've been purchasing the only non-ethanol fuel available in my area, but it's gawdafully expensive ($9.00/gallon US), and a bit inconvenient. And good for local rides only (range limited, of course). All of you in Europe, Oz and NZ are lucky!

I've thought of trying Avgas, but the only grade I can find, at least locally, that might be suitable is 100LL (low lead). A company called "Swift Fuels" is beginning to distribute UL94 (lead free) but it might be a while before we see this fuel locally (Niagra Falls, NY is the closest- 8 hours away). I'm guessing 100 LL avgas would be a bad idea- I have concerns of it possibly compromising the fuel injection system, don't want lead deposits on valves, map could require modification (?), if you're running a cat, forget it, not to say the least of the environmental considerations. Has anyone any experience in substituting Avgas for pump gas in their GRiSO? Not that I would, but just curious.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Age : 62

PostSubject: Re: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:22 pm

Back in the day, avgas was a fuel of choice for many of the people I raced with/against. Those were also the days of lead in fuel as normal, and carburettors. In short don't do it, not on something not designed for leaded fuel, anyway. And besides the octane rating is much higher and unless your engine is designed to handle the extra bang you might get, some other damage may ensue. Tres, tres risky...

Ron might chime in with some advice as he is in that aviation space - Ron?
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:24 pm

Lead deposits on your valves? It was the lead in fuel that lubricated valves and seats for decades.
Environmental considerations? Climate change is a political con! And the lead in fuel was a poison right? Well you may trust the oil companies but I don't. There were reports years ago that catalytic converters converted two dangerous, 2 part chemicals into 4 individual chemicals. Well if those 4 guys did a partner swap on the way out the pipe, the result was far worse than lead.

Dunno, I'm not a scientist, but I often get trapped behind a (modern) vehicle in traffic, a pungent odour and find it hard to breathe. Is there something wrong with that vehicles emission system?
No, I didn't fart!

Real reason for unleaded. Due to the diminishing quality of crude coming out of the ground, a higher level of refinement was required to produce the quality of octane needed. One way of helping to boost octane was increasing the lead content. Ok, that was temporary solution.

But instead of developing better refining processes for cleaner fuels that would cost more, but more importantly (to the oil companies) reduce profits, we get conned with unleaded and catalytic converters ...................... and ethanol

Oil companies like to chuck in additives that boost octane or whatever, so they can sell cheap crap that isn't refined properly, to hell with the consequences, let the motorist fix their own shit heaps.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio


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PostSubject: Re: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:27 pm

Ethanol - FFS the biggest con in history. Used to have a race engine running on it - I could clean the main jet by using my pinky, it was so large, and the needle you could sew with. Used lots of fuel, but did run cooler.

The corn/cane lobby is about to hang, draw and quarter me now - how dare I dis ethanol. Oh boy!
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:15 pm

Careful what Ron says, he shops at Bunnings Aerospace. drunken
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waterbottle
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PostSubject: Re: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:38 pm

ghezzi wrote:
Careful what Ron says, he shops at Bunnings Aerospace. drunken

Hey, the Wright Brothers would have loved that place, bamboo and linen , glues Laughing
Sorry ronbo10, I don't think any of this is helpful. It must suck to not have different choices of fuels available.

The risk I see arising from using Avgas is that as it contains Lead, it does produce lead deposits during the combustion process which tends to bond to very hot things like spark plug insulators, exhaust valves, Catalytic converters. While I've never seen it I'm led to believe it can choke up a cat converter in the long term. About 15 - 20 years ago the amount of lead used was more than halved, but it still chokes up spark plugs on some clients machines.
Some info I dug up which helps explain the ratings
Many grades of Avgas are identified by two numbers associated with its Motor Octane Number (MON)
The first number indicates the octane rating of the fuel tested to "aviation lean" standards, which is similar to the anti-knock index or "pump rating" given to automotive gasoline in the US.
The second number indicates the octane rating of the fuel tested to the "aviation rich" standard, which tries to simulate a supercharged condition with a rich mixture, elevated temperatures, and a high manifold pressure. For example, 100/130 Avgas has an octane rating of 100 at the lean settings usually used for cruising and 130 at the rich settings used for take-off and other full-power conditions.


So it can provide a better anti detonation value, so what ????      Unless you do something to your engine to extract this benefit like increasing the compression ratio to the point normal fuel would detonate or advancing the ignition timing , or both etc etc you wont see any noticeable difference.  Neutral
In the short term I don't think it will hurt anything( Disclaimer Shocked ) but at around $2.00 / litre here and the difficulty in obtaining it , It's not really an option for an everyday rider tongue    
I know this guy with a certain Green GRiSO who does have access to this magic blue fuel, but the remapping is a whole load of hurt he doesn't need right now Crying or Very sad
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ronbo10
Tanabuso
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PostSubject: Re: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:35 am

Interesting comments- thanks everyone.

-Ron
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NorthernProducer
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PostSubject: Re: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:10 pm

Interesting thread...I saw the same question over on the Indian forum from a person in PA (was it you Ronbo?). Unleaded Avgas is hard to find and very expensive if you can find a dispenser willing to sell it to you. I'm still able to get no-ethanol premium from my fuel supplier (where I buy bulk diesel for my tractors) here in Tennessee, but since Shell Oil stopped supplying it in my state, he has to get it from another supplier in Alabama. You might check your area for a wholesaler that can advise you on the nearest location for no-ethanol premium in your area. Keep us updated on your search if you decide to pursue it further.
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PostSubject: Re: Avgas, anyone? (stateside)   Today at 7:58 pm

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