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 ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels

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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:16 am

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Last edited by ghezzi on Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Canyon Carver
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:01 pm

If you inflate them with helium instead of air, won't that make them lighter? clown 
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:07 pm

Canyon Carver wrote:
If you inflate them with helium instead of air, won't that make them lighter? clown 

My head is already full of helium, either that or a total vacuum. JackOLantern
Your clown face might be appropriate, a mate downloaded all my dyno runs for me, he called the file "Bo Bo Racing"
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Uzidzit
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:34 pm

lots of tires out there lighter than the pr3 (you could lose another 1.5 kilo), that handle much quicker the 160 should be good though it is plenty of rubber, there is now way you'll be over powering it...very little to be gained by rubber wider than the motor will pull, we ran 140s and 150s on our formula extreme sv650 (708 strokers) going narrow on the rear should be really good here honestly a tall 150 would probably work even better, lots more tire choices
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:06 am

Hi Uzi, does pr3 = Pilot Road 3? I had those on the stock wheels, BST's have Pilot Power 3's
the info I had available was limited. Jake Wilson USA has tyre weights listed (possibly for shipping purposes) but he doesn't carry all brands or all sizes in some brands he stocks.

I favour Michelin from personal experience, and some other brands scare me from same.
Also tyres like Power Pure and Pirelli DC SC2 are discontinued lines, so old stock would be exactly that, "OLD". And then I wouldn't be able to replace with same later.

I had Pilot Power 2CT's on my Hyper, I think it still is the lightest 120/70 front at 8.5lb. But my experience on the Ducati was it would squirm all over the place under braking, unless I had a min of 34psi cold. The Guzzi is a little heavier and so is the Pilot Power 3 at 9.16lb, I'm hoping that weight means a little extra strength in the sidewall.

In the end, EVERYTHING is a compromise.
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Uzidzit
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:01 am

the pr3 is the pilot road 3 we tend to have big issues with Michelin weaves the last 1/4 of the tire, on the 3 I like tires that are predictable all the way through their life, and the mich just do not give that right now. if you want feed back you need carcass stiffness in the sidewall,,,the new dunlop q3 has a wonderful level of feedback decent weight, and really good profile and is avail in a 160. The grip will not be as good in the rain but much better in the dry. (cheaper too) The s-20 bridgstone is also good right now.

I do like the pr3 as a rain tire for the first 3/4 of its life it is a nice slow progressive handler, really predictable It just gets really spooky when the front gets worn, I won't run them on a bike to the wear bars because of the weave in long high speed sweepers( all current big M tires weave near the end, why I do not know)

were your 2cts from the first run? they were the pits, never a great tire but they got better they really had very unpredictable grip (the 2 compounds mate line was never very even)

I don't know about there but the favorite pastime among my riding group is just a maniac passion for burning tires, and trying every new one that comes along, and then running the piss out of them to see how fast we can burn em. We just like to test tires here they are a line item in my monthly budget every 2-3 weeks I buy a set for something
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:32 pm

In Australia RRP for a set of tyres is close to $500. Plenty of specials but tyres are usually 3+ years old. Had Ducati 07 to 09 with Diablo Corso III's, very slippery in the wet. Followed by 1 set of Pilot Powers, then 3 sets of PP2CT's. Loved them.
2.5 years bikeless then Bella since 2011. It came with Avon Storms, average. Then PR3's.

That is the extent of my modern tyre personal experience. I take a long time to put all my trust in a tyre that is new to me, hence the Michy preference. I did consider Dunlop Q3's. Weaving at 3/4 life will not be an issue as currently I don't get opportunity to ride as often as I would like. Tyres will be replaced due to age, not wear.
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Uzidzit
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:26 pm

Gotcha I do about 35-50k a year and avg about 20 sets of street tires and a few sets of track tires. One reason I have tried about everything is whenever a new tire comes out they do promos of the new skins at low prices like when the PR3 came out I bought 2 sets one for the strom and one for the vffr for $445 usd. The dunlop Q3 showed this year and came out in an intro for $240 a set for the GRiSO, and at the same time Dunlop made the track circuit with the leftover Q2s and were blowing them out for $80 each. And sending them to distributors to blow out at $190 a set shipped

Aus is kind of a bummer very high import costs. don't know if it could pay for you to do private group buys and get shipped in shipping is murder I feel for ya we have it good here on some things.

The trick is ya have to be ready to throw a few sets back if you have a cool dark place they will keep 2 years very well, and if you buy at the intro deals the tires are very fresh, if on closeout you gotta watch.

The only skins that are really bad right now are the diablo, and anything avon is making(holy crap I do not know what they do) but when they start to slide (which is not a problem) they just will not hook back up, I bought a set of the 3Ds when they came out did 300miles on them pulled them off and sold them total shite (a friend tried them on the track and they were no better) dot race tires my arse. I am very lucky where I live we have decent roads pretty smooth but crazy technical twisty, so they use very abrasive tarmack, superb for grip crap for tire life.

The PR3 is about one of the best in the wet, next to a race rain. It seems to be good for about 20mph over something like an 016 or 021, or insert typical sport touring tire, when it is raining hard.

The real key is to decide what ya like, do you like road feedback or comfort, personally I want to know exactly what the front wheel is doing (so usually that means a heavy stiff sidewall) That is why dunlop has put the carbon fiber ring in the sidewall on the q3, pierelli bias tires I generally like (the sport demon is a great tire) but they tend to do the soft carcass no feel thing. You mentioned the rosso was a really marginal tire I have to agree, but so much better than the plain diablo ...sorry round my parts we have bad rubber fetish.

we are in the golden age of bike tires right no though, even the marginal ones are really good I would not be too timid about experimenting, go back a few years and I would not have recommended bridgstone at all but now the s-20 sport tires and the t-30 spot touring tires from them are very good. Hell the s-11 spitfire bridgestone (they just discontinued) was great on older bikes like a kz or cb, gs, or the like any old ujm, or older euro standard.



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Scot p
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:43 pm

Jake wilson will ship to OZ Smile i had my Pilot powers in 3 days from US to Sydney...I came out about $100 ahead after freight was taken into account...

cya
Scot.

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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:03 pm

My mate John brings all his tyres in from Jake Wilson, tyre machines are in my shed so if anybody in Brisbane needs a tyre (even after hours) give me a call and I'll hook you up.

John got in 6 tyres weighing 65lbs, took 3 days by DHL @ $105 freight.
I got 2 discs weighing 6.5lb, took 8 days and cost $98 freight. Spoke with the DHL delivery guy, he said if either sender or receiver have a DHL account they will freight it.


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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:01 am

ghezzi wrote:
BrakeTech Axis Iron rotors arrived today, pleasantly surprised as they are lighter than stock.

Stock Brembo: 4mm thick, semi floater, warped and weigh 1684g each
Metal Gear disc: 4mm thick, semi floater, warped and weigh 1682g each.
Brake Tech disc: 5mm thick, full floater and weigh 1428g each. Front wheel weight saving now stands at 4.5kg
.

to complete the weight options, the Grimeca as mounted on 2012 stelvio is only 1244 grams. And they are really cheap. Almost half the price of brembo stock. HAve them on the daytona and stelvio, got them blue on track days but no warp. One thing, they exist with steel and aluminium center. Were I think the alu center ones are for rsv4 and steel for stelvio, but I know quite a number of people who got the alu version for 122 euro, weight here is alu version

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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:41 am

Hi Paul, are those full floaters? And how thick are the discs, 4 or 5mm?
Its a pity they don't advertise their wares and maximise the lightness factor, have yet to see a set of these on any of the major retailers from USA. Is it a google thing?
What options have you found for the rear disc, I can't find a thing.

Bought my chromoly and alloy stock today for the rear hub. Machining starts tomorrow.
$160 for 10kg of metal, hope most of it ends up in the bin
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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:35 am

These are 4.5mm, non full floating. They are not advertised as they are only sold to piaggio. And you can order them at any guzzi dealer.

The difference with light front wheel is amazing, I had to get used to it, that at speed, over 100km/h, I could so easy correct a corner radius.

Other disks I have are PVM, they are narrow and 5.5 mm thick full floaters, only the floaters are so near to the braking area that most calipers have no clearance for the floaters.
but otherwise they are awsome. 1320 grams. But not cheap

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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Hey thanks for that Paul, included Grimeca specs on the previous page. Been having trouble with both sets of 4mm semi (non) floater discs warping/pulsing. No amount of button cleaning lasts for any more than a 200km ride. And I only use engine braking, "Honest". But that 1244g discs looks tempting. I fell for the full Ti bolt wank ........................

Well this development is certainly an education. EDUCATION COSTS MONEY!
Bought some 4340 for both the axle and the crownwheel mount. $86. (200 x 27 and 60 x 185)
Two slabs of T6 alloy 140 dia x 50 for the hubs, $66.
Checking with the heat treatment guys I find out its better to treat then machine if you want perfect alignment for everything. OK.
But I bought black bar not bright bar, meaning we have to machine 2mm off the radius to remove contaminants before heat treatment. OK
So buy another piece of 4340 in bright bar which is dearer. $55. (60 x 185)
Heat treatment approx. $150.

CAD development and machining looks like 2 weeks work minimum .................................Update/edit 1st Oct - it took 95 hours

Never said it would be a cheap exercise.
But if I got da money, somebody's got da technorogy.


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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:55 pm

Hub machining starts .....................

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These will be sent to the wire cutters for internal splines.
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Peter's favourite line is, "I can make a tool for that".

The radius tool used here took him about 20 hours to make for a previous customer - my good luck. Smile
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:03 pm

Now for the plastic surgery ..........
Fitting the perfectly true hubs to the carbon centre revealed a run out of nearly 1mm on opposite sides of the rim. We determined there was a 0.006" variation in resin thickness at the centre of the wheel, which multiplies to approx. 0.036" at the outside.

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I can imagine Terry Annecke (@BST HQ) having apoplexy if he sees this. affraid 
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Scot p
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:08 pm

nice, how about a nice anno purple on the hubs when your finished machining...

cya
Scot.
Red would also work..
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:15 pm

No way Scott, I will have a bright red anodizing to the alloy hubs, They will be 5 finger shaped similar to the following, but much nicer, of course.
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Centre nut is Titanium.
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Scot p
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:19 pm

well I did list red as 2nd option... as your at the annodisers, do the rocker covers at the same time..loved the red anno covers on my V11 Le-mans...

cya
Scot...
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:23 pm

They don't call me Cyclops for no reason ......................

Never been a fan of black and red is always faster, but have to admit Bella is taking on a rather admirable "Stealth" look with the black on black. Was advised by another customizer that a little bit of red goes a long way so I think I will keep it subtle.
Disc buttons on front wheel.
Centre hubs of rear wheel.
Span adjusters on ASV levers.
Guzzi emblem on tank.

Mr Roper will be sending me a chromed steel V7 café tank, but inferred my taste is in my bum if I don't paint it.
Quote "If you wanted to be really vulgar and crass you could even leave it chrome."
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:33 pm

That'll be a few weeks away Wayne as I have to wait for the replacement to come. I'll have to run the part #'s for the two pumps through as well. Dunno if the Bella pump is the same.

Pete
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Uzidzit
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:08 pm

If you will ram edm the splines hot for the rough pass, and finish with low amprage, there will be no need for secondary heat treat on the 4340 hub, if it was RC28-30 to begin with (this std for prehard stressproof stock). (if you want to go this route and it will be tough and there will be no extra heat treat).
 If you are looking for the max durability out of the part RC40 is where it is at for through hardening.  Rough the part about .015 over, hit in an atmospherically controlled oven for the hardening, and the draw to RC40, then stress relieve few about 2 hours an in inch cross section at 400-450f, shot peen (soft steel) and then ram the splines last rough as hot as possible, then finish cool.  

The reason is if you rough hot on the splines with the ram it will force extra carbon into the splines (about 15 thou deep) and make the surface about 70Rc, then finish at low current with the finish ram to diminsion and that will leave a good finish (better than wire)...electropolish if deesired.   the finished part will have splines that cannot wear, and a core that you could not break, just two approaches for the part. Will yeild a tough piece and diminsionally accurate.   The wire edm will yeild a nice set of splines and will have a hard skin but it will be very thin and not too helpful as a wear surface after it is cleaned up (it will be no harder than the core).  i would be leary of harder than 40-42rc for 4340 at core strength.  (this is a great number stren vs toughness for this mtl.)

Make damn sure the heat treater is atmospherically controlled in the furnace, and they do not pickle in hcl at the end for 4340. the passivation for this material i use is a buffered phos edta base

The Grimeca, can be converted to full float easily


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Guzziboy66
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:32 am

Fascinating...

I just wish I had the were-with-all to understand a sliver of it. Maybe pictures would help? Amazing to me anyway.

Eric
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:50 am

Umm, Uzi, I asked back on pg1 post #5 for advice from anybody with engineering background.

Too late now, half the job is completed and we are committed to the rest.
Hardened to 38/40 by professionals, don't need to know the technique/process, just the accuracy of their work.  Thumbs Up

Alloy sent to wire cutters today for internal spline in hubs.
Peter is machining splines on shaft.
Last option - nitride shaft (but not the thread).



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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:20 am

Hi Eric, it's always been hard to get the pictures in me head onto paper, or even better still, into metal and carbon fibre. Some people can wax lyrical with Pythagoras's theory and flux capacitors, but I am more hands on with bits of metal and nuts and bolts, with mechanical aptitude.

BST didn't want to make a set of wheels that bolted on, even though many had requested them.
I needed to replace a damaged rear rim and rusted spokes on both my wheels and thought I might get a 17" front rim while I was at it. Meaning $1500 for basically a cosmetic gain.

Figured I should go tubeless (saves weight) and sought out Alpina (GRiSO spoke) wheels. $3,000+.
Then sought out Kineo tubeless spoke wheels, I like spokes OK, still close to $3,000. Both had weight savings of about 1.5kg per wheel, and most of that was due to the tube or lack thereof.

BST's landed in Australia, about $4,000. I got a set locally for $2,935 but the reality is I will spend more than that again in development costs, materials and machining.

I will post pictures of the final assembled product but am hesitant to give all the info away as I know there are parasites out there waiting for free info to capitalize on it financially.

I've got two choices;
1. Keep it to myself and have global bragging rights to the only BST shod Guzzi, or
2. Sell the technology. As in, let my machinist mate Peter make his living out of selling a few kits to like minded Guzzisti.

Yes I am paying him by the hour, I may get a discounted rate but he still has to pay rent and eat. If Pete wants to give me a spotters fee for bringing him a few customers, that's his choice. But I guarantee I will never get my development dollar back.
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PostSubject: Re: ghezzi tech: the quest for lighter wheels   Today at 1:53 am

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