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 (Sigh.) 'Nother one.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:32 am

Re-flash, PCV-AT package, thousands spent, comes into shop for service, as soon as the rocker covers a off I can smell the fuel in the oil. So can the owner. Pull the plugs. Black as night.

Owner says its delightfully smooth and the system had cured the slight hunting at about 3,500 on a light throttle. Fucking your rings and bores in short order and severely degrading your oil simply to cure a bit of hunting on a light throttle seems a bit short sighted but there again I'm a fuckwit who knows nothing so pay no attention to me........

Yes, he's taking the shit off this weekend........

Pete
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:01 am

That's a bummer.

I don't know if this example is an anomaly or not, but My 8V runs like a gem and has a nice boost in power over the 1100. While I think the PC-V improved the 1100, I just haven't seen the need to monkey with the 8V.

Hopefully, this same fate won't befall others who've put the full meal deal on their 8V's as well...

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2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:00 pm

As 'I've tried to explain innumerable times Steve its all related to the cam timing and charge transference. I've seen it on every 8V I've seen with the AT set-up on it. Using EGA as the sole tuning method simply won't wash on the side draft head design with a narrow included valve angle and very long overlap, especially if combined with modifications that remove physical resistance in the pipe and airbox.

I remain convinced that the factory engineers know this and there is a 'Fudge Factor' built in to the stock mapping to take account of variances in the O2 sensor signals. If you look at the plugs on a stock mapped G8 you'll find that at most throttle openings and loads they indicate the mixture is pretty good. All the AT equipped bikes have dark plugs indicating an overly rich mixture. Sometimes they are really black! An O2 sensor tells you what's happening in the exhaust pipe. I couldn't give a shit what's happening in the pipe! I want to know what's happening in the combustion chamber! Where are the plugs located? Very Happy

Pete
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:46 pm

Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world. I just hate to see innumerable owners completely buggering their beautiful motorcycles after spending thousands on PC-V/AT, pipes, and air box mods. More pity than anything else I guess...

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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:52 pm

Don't get me wrong, the stock mapping isn't perfect. Its just that I want to make sure that anything that is used to modify it actually works and doesn't make things worse. I might start buggering about with Guzzidiag tuner-pro soon but I don't think I'll be needing to do anything radical.

Pete
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NorthBayGriso
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:05 pm

OK, gents - I hear you loud and clear.

However, I too am getting the low throttle / low speed / low RPM stumble. I lanesplit in my daily commute, at speeds that pretty much limit me to 10-40 mph. If an O2-Optimizer and or special ECU flash aren't the answer, what is?

[edit] And I have no time or ability to futz with GuzziDiag. With my luck and skill set, I'd only make things worse... :-)

Edit 2: Then again, the price point is good, and a pre-programmed .bin file of known quality and effect might make all the difference.

I'm so confused...
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RR Bob
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:33 pm

My '13 8V seems pretty well dialed in from the Factory.  Yes there may be a slight
low throttle low speed low RPM stumble, but I don't see it all the time and it is not
bothersome enough to start the mods we are talking about here.  Like Steve says,
the 8V "runs like a gem" and makes the most power I've ever felt in a Moto Guzzi product.

Heck, I'm still pining for the old 93 octane or above that we used to get in Cali when I
was a youngster.  Now it's just 91, plus some ethanol in the mix.  I figure these engines
would really sing with the higher octane stuff that had MTBE in it.  Yeah, I know that
additive was bad for the ground water and maybe it's good that it's gone, but still...Twisted Evil
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:53 pm

Hello, I'm the short-sighted numpty that Pete speaks of in the first post. Yes, I drank the PCV/AT koolaid, yes it was delightfully smooth at low speed, yes it started easier, yes it was less rough at idle when cold , and yes, she lost her raw edge...

...but I'm better now and so is the GRiSO. No more fuel-stinky oil, somewhat better throttle response down low, and the raw edge has returned. I do miss the easier start and smooth, stumble free low end, and the exhaust popping has returned. But I can live with it. What was I thinking? Shocked 

The offending items removed from GRiSO:

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Pete, if you start buggering about with the ECU programming and mapping,  I have a spare ECU if you need guinea pigs.
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:26 pm

Well, I wouldn't exactly call it Koolaid. Many seem to be satisfied with the PCV-AT package. I know that I was on my G1100. For me, this 8V runs so damned good as it is (and a noticeable tug over the 1100) that I've not found any need to monkey around with it beyond a different exhaust can.

Like any other modification outside of factory trim, you pit yourself against the wisdom of the factory engineers. There is always risk involved, but sometimes some reward as well.

To each his own, different strokes for different folks.

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:35 am

Steak wrote:
Well, I wouldn't exactly call it Koolaid.  Many seem to be satisfied with the PCV-AT package.  I know that I was on my G1100.  For me, this 8V runs so damned good as it is (and a noticeable tug over the 1100) that I've not found any need to monkey around with it beyond a different exhaust can.
I hear you. All the others that have done this to their 8V's that are happy as pigs in poo make me wonder whether I was just unlucky, or had bad hardware, or the maps were screwed up... or whether those other 8V owners have the same fuel-in-oil problem and are just ignoring it?

Also, something else I wonder, as I have one of Todd's reflashed ECU's sitting here, would it be worthwhile to stick the ECU in without the PCV/AT. Would she still run over rich with some of the fuel being dumped into the sump, or would some of those niggles I mentioned be gone and the bike be delightful again without the risk of early ring damage? At this point I'm not prepared to risk it. Pete put the fear into me real good.
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NorthBayGriso
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:04 pm

I just updated the GuzziDiag thread over @ WildGuzzi [http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=59717.320] with my trials and tribulations of getting it working on my G8V.

We'll see how an improved .bin improves things...
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:09 pm

I see there was drama getting GuzziDiag to connect. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, it worked first go for me with the cables I got for Ducatidiag.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:23 am

Thing is Steve that the 8V motor is a completely different engine to the 4V pushrod donk. What will work with the earlier motor won't with the 8V. I also tend to think a lot of people mistake the smoothness that comes from over-fueling with performance. No matter, people can put whatever they want on their bikes but I've yet to see a W5AM equipped bike, four or eight valve, that doesn't over fuel grossly using a PCV. They can't all just be unlucky!

Pete
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:30 am

Pete, don't misunderstand, I tend to agree with you. Especially about the "people can put whatever they want..." part.

The 8V is such a nice motor, especially so when well sorted. Personally, I just don't see any reason to fuck with it. I guess I can understand why people would want to fiddle, but having spent 1000s of miles on a GRiSO 1100 before and after the 8 HP bump I got for $1500, the 25 HP bump the 1200 8V gave me was very satisfactory.

The 8V is a wonder.

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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:05 am

The unfortunate thing with the 1100 was that to continue to sneak the engine through emissions they had to shrink the ports and use smaller throttle bodies than they did on the V11. The 1100 is undoubtably a very smooth and refined thing but in stock trim it lost some of the urgency of the model that preceded it. One of the things I really love about the 8V, especially the early ones, is that they put a bit of the 'Mongrel' back.

The W5AM controller has a lot more functions than some give it credit for. A lot of those functions will still be operating and trying to adjust parameters even if there is a map modifier in the harness. My guess is that the two system just end up fighting each other. With the change over to the 7SM controller on the Cali 14 messing around with stuff will become even harder as the rider no longer has control even of the air! The demand sensor just gets told what the rider wants via the throttle and after that mass, temperature and movement sensors take care of the rest. It's why the 1400 gears appreciably better fuel mileage than the 1200.

Pete
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AH Head
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:45 pm

OK......... I'm getting a little alarmed....spent the money, and a shit load of time on the dyno to help heal my 2012 GRiSO of the fueling issues.
Stepped up and got Todd Eagens full package ECU / PC/V and auto tune..hi flow air filter ect as well as pipe.
If I'm getting this right...... Pete your saying Im gonna burn this thing down or damage that big beautiful lump of an engine......... is that right?Shocked 

As soon as you can..........
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:27 pm

Many people are currently happy with their PCV/AT packages. Most would be after spending that much money, its hard to say "Hmmm? The Emperor has no clothes."

Sorry, every PCV/AT equipped Guzzi I've seen has grossly over fueled, the 8V's in particular don't like the system, (Or any other that tunes purely by exhaust gas analysis.) due to the head design and cam timing. You can do a search on any number of boards and find my explanation of why it doesn't work and why bikes so fitted over fuel. I'm just over it. I know that the vast majority of people reckon that the 8V is terribly strangled by the evil 'Government' and a few magic flicks with an aftermarket tuning programme will work wonders! Sorry, it won't. While some of the tuning is weird to meet emissions regs these will have little effect on performance per-se. Yes, the stock maps can be improved, but EGA alone is not the way to tune your engine.

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:42 pm

AH Head, do yourself a favour and whip one of your valve covers off and have a smell. If you are alarmed now, wait to you smell the excess fuel in your oil.
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:14 pm

Shit............... does Todd have anything to say about all of this???

Thanks for that................ so, go back to stock config. and then what?? anyone!!

Cheers
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:08 pm

Todd will tell you that every other person on the planet uses EGA to tune engines and I don't know what I'm talking about. The head design and cam timing on the 8V are very unusual compared to just about anything else on the market but this doesn't matter according to the *Experts* who are, strangely enough, the same people who are selling the product!

Oddly enough I'm not selling anything but apparently I have some ulterior motive for believing what I do.

Incidentally the two 8V's I've heard of that have had major melt downs did so either during or shortly after being dyno-tuned after fitment of a PCV/AT system. To my mind if you want to fuck about with fueling and blow your warranty a far better option is do it yourself virtually for free with Guzzidiag.

As for 'What else'? Well first step is to get it tuned properly. 99% of all the bikes that first come to my workshop are incorrectly tuned.

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:05 am

AH Head wrote:
so, go back to stock config. and then what??   anyone!!

What were your fueling problems? In my case my GRiSO would hunt/surge at low speed when tooling around town. That returned when I removed the PC-V/AT and installed my stock ECU.

Enter GuzziDiag. Simply turning off the lambda eliminated the hunting, as well as the popping on the overrun that everyone seems to hate. I also ran it with the GT reflashed ECU without the Dynojet crap with the same result.

Pete will probably tut-tut, but I'm playing with GuzziDiag to make conservative adjustments to the fueling. The standard map runs the bike on the lean side. I'm tuning by seat-of-pants and reading my spark plugs. No EGA for me.
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:28 am

No tut-tuting from me. In fact I'll probably be asking for your help shortly as you obviously have a grasp of this that I freely admit I don't have at the moment.

What I am is a tradesman who knows his trade. This means that I, unlike parts changers, understand how engines work. I feel it incumbent on me to learn new shit so I can give the best service I can to my customers. Note I say 'LEARN' this stuff doesn't just pop into your head and I freely admit that this sort of fuelling/programing/modifying stuff is all new to me. I know why stuff doesn't work. What I now have to learn is the how and why, most particularly the how to erradicate problems and make it work better.

In that I am more than happy to ask for and pay for education. If that makes me somehow inferior? So be it! I giveth not a shit.

At the moment I have just struck the first major problem I've had with factory mapping. I'm not willing to go into it on-line as it will cause a hysterical outpouring of angst that is totally unjustified but since the factory will unlikely be able to fix it I need to be able to. Hence the need for Guzzidiag.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:58 am

Thanks Pete............... Beetle.. what started all of this for me was very questionable throttling at low RPM and loads.
OK.. so Pete one more thing after I turn this thing back to what it was,is there any slip on that I can use that will at least give it a beefy sound?... or do you recommend putting the factory culvert back on...hope not.

PS..... anyone looking for a lightly used ..PC/V.. staintune and Guzzi Tech pipe???

Cheers;

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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:36 am

Oh... Wouldn't the Staintune pipe work with everything else stock? I don't have a GRiSO yet and am rabidly following all threads concerning it. If/when I get one, I want to change the muffler. I know it's vain, but I can't stand the look of the stocker.

Eric
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: (Sigh.) 'Nother one.   Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:03 pm

Most of the W5AM bikes will quite happily take a pipe. For best overall performance though it is best to have one that is physically long, (This will help prevent air being drawn back into the pipe at lower RPM and messing with the O2 sensor readings, if you turn off the O2 sensor input you can run anything you want.) and has both a catalytic converter and a dB killer. These will assist by adding physical resistance, (This is not the same as 'Back Pressure'!) to the exhaust system and helps prevent the new, incoming charge from just transiting the combustion chamber and buggering off out the exhaust valves while the valves are on overlap. Note that when this happens the oxygen in the uncombusted mix effects the O2 sensor making the ECU believe the mixture is lean so it just keeps pouring in fuel, hence the over fueling.

No, no reason not to change the pipe. On an otherwise stock bike some work better than others. I have the factory Termi on mine and my GRiSO Pinko now owned by Greg Field had a Mistral Hi-pipe. Both worked well. I have to say I am not fond of the Staintune. To me it sounds tinny and seems to cause a lot more popping on the over-run than most pipes.

Pete

PS, on the 'Dubious Throttling' issue I have to say I'm always a bit baffled by this? Yes, throttle control has to be done very carefully at low RPM but we are talking about a 1200cc twin with a very light flywheel and no Cush drive to speak of in the driveline. You have to be careful and removing as much free play from the cables as possible pays big dividends. My very early A5 GRiSO will, with care, pull cleanly and happily from 2,000 to redline in any gear. If mine will do it? Any 8V should do it!


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