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 Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting

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austin_22
Carlotto
Carlotto


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PostSubject: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:13 pm

I am new to the Guzzi line and have had several, with increasing frequency, issues trying to downshift. As the story goes, I am cruising at constant speed or accelerating, when for whatever reason I need to slow and/or increase RPMs so I pull in the clutch, press down on the shifter and am greeted with a loud "Nope" from my gearbox. The shifter is just stuck, won't go down. The first few times I was thrown off to the point of mentally saying "Oh Shit" for the first half second, but now I have learned to simply re-engage the clutch and then try again. So far this has always worked and after re-engaging and then trying to downshift again I have had no issues.

One more thing. After pulling up to a red light with the bike still in first gear, I let go of the front brake to raise my visor and the bike started moving forward, this was the first time I had experienced the issue and was very confused. I tried like hell to get the bike out of first but could not. Finally after cycling the clutch and throttle several times with varying degrees of complexity, I finally managed to get her into neutral. But all the while she was in gear, the bike was literally pulling forward with the clutch fully de[pressed.

My local dealer/mechanic has not heard of these issues before and says I need to provide them a gripe that can be replicated by them during a test ride or else I risk a $10k gearbox breakdown to "Hopefully" find an issue that the warranty will cover. I am now up to 1 or 2 incidents of stuck shifter per day, so am getting closer to the dealership visit.

Anyone, anywhere ever had this issue?????

Gavan
2013 GRiSO 1200 SE
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DungeonMaster
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:15 pm

I have a very good friend that runs his own indie shop. In Santa Ana.
RTL Moto
Sean Fader
rtlmoto.com

a bit of a hoof for you to be sure but I used to work with him in a previous shop and I trust his knowledge and competence working on Guzzi's very deeply.

DM
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:41 pm

Bleed the clutch!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:46 pm

It's not a gearbox issue, it's a clutch issue, the clutch isn't disengaging.

As Ghezzi's says, bleed the clutch. If that doesn't work look carefully at the slave cylinder and make sure it's retaining bolts haven't come loose.

If your 'Mechanic' can't recognise these symptoms for what they are I suggest you find a better mechanic.

Pete
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:00 pm

Agreed with all above and if the G12 has something that is well engineered and bullet proof, it's the gearbox. Wink
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:12 pm

Mine does it too, but only when I run WOT and hit the rev limiter. Which is frequently.

It's the clutch. Bleed it it baby, bleed it!
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:52 am

OK, so while we are on clutch bleeding comments, sorry to hijack the thread, i have bled mine, but cannot get it as good as new, there is still play in the lever.

On the last Triumph i put a bleed nipple on the end of the clutch master cylinder (replaced the bolt with banjo bolt a nipple), anyone done this on the GRiSO?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:11 am

I use a bloody great master-vac. It'lol suck golf balls through a garden hose. Get the nipple uppermost as you bleed and you're golden.

Pete
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austin_22
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:08 am

Thank you all. I will bleed the clutch and see what happens. As for the mechanic, I have already found a new one, just a bit further drive. More to follow
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austin_22
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:42 pm

Update. Clutch bleed, air evacuated, issue hasn't been repeated since. I was surprised to see how dirty the DOT4 was after only 4k miles. Thanks for all the advice.
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:13 pm

Yeah it doesn't stay clear very long.
That's the nature of the beast.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:22 pm

Just as an addendum to this subject another thing to check is the plunger from the lever to the piston of the master cylinder.

If you look at the lever you will see there is a small barrel in it with a protrusion on the bottom and out of this pokes a plunger that goes to the master cylinder piston through the boot on the back of the cylinder/perch. The plunger is in fact threaded and screws into the barrel in the lever and is 'Locked' in place by a tiny grub screw with a 1.5mm hex in it.

If the grub screw comes loose the plunger may vibrate loose and wind itself out or, in very rare cases, in. If this happens the plunger won't start activating the piston until much later and the clutch won't fully disengage. If it winds itself in then the clutch will be prone to slippage.

Thing to do is remove the lever from the bar and look at the back of the plunger. It has a slot for a flat bladed screwdriver in it, see if it will move at all. If the lever travel seems excessive before the clutch disengages you can try loosening the grub screw and winding the plunger in a turn before re-locking the screw.

The reason this sprung to mind is I found this problem on a 1200 Sport I had in last week and Mark's GRiSO we were stuffing about with last Friday. On the sport the plunger was really loose. On Mark's bike it was just poorly set up and needed a bit more 'Length' to get full activation of the clutch.

Pete
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mark111
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:03 pm

In addition to Pete's comments above I have had good success bleeding the clutch hydraulics by reversing the process of normal bleeding.


I firstly bleed through the system conventionally to get all of the old fluid out but leaving new fluid in the lines and small amount in the reservoir.


I then use a large medical syringe with some bleeder hose attached and reverse bleed the system.
I open the bleeder and push fluid back through the system so that it fills up the master cylinder. Obviously you need to suck some of the fluid out of the master cylinder reservoir periodically so that it does not overflow.


If you do this with a gentle pressure it seems to do a good job of getting any excess air out of the system.


Make a point of covering any exposed frame and body components with plastic to prevent any splashback or leaks causing damage to paint.


WARNING: Do and do not apply to much pressure on the syringe when filling the lines and this should eliminate the risk of any excess fluid spurting out.


 


I have also used this process successfully when bleeding the brakes where it works famously as the air in the lines will generally gravitates to the highest point in the line.


If used gently and with patience it seems to be a very effective way to eliminate all air in the lines.
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WCB
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:04 am

Hey Pete, on the topic of clutches, is there a specific reason that the 09 Stelvio clutch actuation is so much stiffer than later ones? When I ride Jacquie's GRiSO, I can't believe how much easier the clutch lever feels.

Was there a change in the size of the master cylinder on the later years? If there is a solution, I'd like to change it. It gets very tiresome in traffic and off road work.

My Stelvio's clutch is so stiff, I have worn out 2 clutch levers in the course of 60,000 miles. The clutch works flawlessly though.

I
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:34 am

No change in the MC but the spring was changed and that made a big difference. If I have to pull my gearbox at any point for anything I'll be installing the later clutch. Mine kills my wrist in traffic!

Pete
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WCB
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:57 pm

Gotcha. When my clutch gets tired, the plate change should take care of it. Good to know. I wonder what the life span is on these clutches. The Stelvio has nearly 60,000 miles on it, and the clutch engagement feels exactly the same as day one, although I'm not that tough on clutches.

Thanks Pete.
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austin_22
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:19 am

So...... More learning for me. Took the old girl in for the 6k maintenance and spoke to my mechanic about my intermittent shifting problem. Looks like I'm the fool and have inadvertently caused the issue, by putting bar end mirrors on that apparently didn't allow my clutch to completely disengage (premature mechanical stop in other words). I am not super educated on the proper operation of a dry clutch, and I may have done some serious wear to my clutch plate. The mechanic's best guess, is 50% wear on the plate. I only have 6500 miles, so that's really bad news. Those mirrors will be the most expensive bar ends in history. Now that I'm back to the OEM mirrors, how to extend the life of my clutch plate is the question, and yes, I now have a coffee can clutch fund.
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:04 pm

My guess and it's just a guess, is that you should get at least a 100K miles out of a clutch under normal condition...
It's a guess because I know of no one that has that kind of mileage on a 8V yet.
So based on those speculations, you have 43,500 miles to go.

Someone might need to correct me on this but since you were not engaging the clutch all the way, you could have more of a synchros problems than a clutch issue.
What wear a clutch out in normal operation, is constant shifting (city riding only) and staying in gear idling like at traffic lights etc...

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think you hurt your bike all that much due to your low mileage in "compromise" operation.

Someone with more experience than I might chime in and shed more light on this...
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Enzo the baker
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:20 pm

Mr. Roper, "It'lol suck golf balls through a garden hose." Ahhh, that got me thinking of a girl I used to know, whoops, wrong forum.
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Fissionmaker
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:24 pm

The fluid operating the release bearing is in a hostile environment and degrades quicker than the slave cylinder reservoir color. I hope the release bearing seals are built to a high standard. Every time I've bled the clutch hydraulics on the GRiSO there was a burst of blackish fluid from the release bearing actuator. Worth making this procedure an annual ritual.
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:11 pm

If the bar end was stopping you pulling the clutch lever all the way in (disengage), well gear changes may have been a little clunky but this would not accelerate wear.

If you were sitting at traffic lights, in gear and trying to hold the bike stationery with the brakes, because the 'not fully disengaged' clutch was dragging, this might cause some heat and wear to the plates.

On average Guzzi clutches last 150,000km, one might expect that during that period some clutch abuse would take place.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:26 pm

No synch ros in a Guzzi box, it's a constant mesh unit, which gear is selected to deliver drive is chosen by dog clutches on the pinions themselves.

As others have said unless you sat stationary holding the bike on the brakes with it in gear wear will of been minimal but I'm afraid you are an idiot.....

Pete
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:35 pm

This actually reminds me of a short arsed 1200GS rider, who kept falling over because he couldn't reach the ground. He eventually fell to the right. Had a problem develop, front brakes keep seizing on every few miles.

I drove from Brisbane to Toowoomba to retrieve his bike, about 270km round trip. Got it back to the dealer who just rotated his hand guards a few degrees so it didn't interfere with the brake lever anymore. So I deliver the bike back to the owner, who, in his excitement jumped on to go for a ride, and promptly fell off forcing the hand guard down and onto the lever again.

I suggested he buy an 883 Sportster.
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austin_22
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:48 pm

Based on the comments here, I shouldn't worry. I don't ride the clutch or sit at idle in gear and while I have city parts of my commute, it is a small portion. Let's hope for 100k on it. Not sure that my mechanic has been on MGs that long but he is well versed in BMW which uses a dry clutch too. We'll see I guess. Still need to solve the mirror problem, hate the OEM ones.

Lots of Aussies on here, I think you guys might out number the states on GRiSO owners. I lived in Melbourne (twice) and never saw one GRiSO, but then, I was a city rat and rode a pushy.
Thanks and cheers.
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Street
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PostSubject: Re: Transmission "Stuck" while downshifting   Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:33 pm

austin_22 wrote:
Lots of Aussies on here, I think you guys might out number the states on GRiSO owners.

There are plenty of us Yanks here, we're just more demure, the Ozzies are a buncha blabbermouths! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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