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 My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?

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Goodrug
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:35 pm

The tick-over on my  GRiSO is a bit fast at 1250 rpm and it occasionally gets up to 1350rpm. The main dealer tells me that the tick-over speed is not adjustable Shocked  Is this correct? When I select a gear from neutral when all is warmed up there is a big "clunk" and the bike jumps forward a few inches. I think that this is being accentuated by the over fast tick-over?
The handbook states that the tick over speed should be 1100rpm +/- 100rpm. What speed does yours tick over at?

Yours puzzled.


Last edited by Goodrug on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling mistake)
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Tolle09
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:56 pm

I think that the tickover's controlled by the stepper motor, which I'm lead to believe is not adjustable. Perhaps you have an airleak on the inlet side
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:08 pm

Idle speed is governed by a number of things:
- Throttle Body Sync;
- Whether someone has enjoyed the "sacred screw";
- Throttle bypass air bleed screws;
- The number set in your ECU map;
- Oil in your throttle bodies;
- Air leaks around the inlet manifolds;
- Stepper motor function;

Apart form this, not much else I believe!

To start sorting this out you need to doe the easy things first:
If you engine oil is filled to the high mark on your dipstick, or the airbox drain pipe has oil in it you might need to drain a little oil form your crank case. Generally these beasts like to be filled to the low mark on the dipstick and no higher. if it is higher it will end up in the airbox and probably in to one of the throttle bodies. Drain you airbox pipe, and if you get more than a few drops, you have too much oil.

Often the throttle bodies are not set up right as shipped. Only one air bleed screw should be opened. Close both and see if that changes anything. Get your throttle bodies balanced by someone who knows what they are doing - or better still, get the gear and do it yourself. All the details are on this site. Once learnt, very easy to do.

Stepper motors are know to stick sometimes, usually from gunk in the stepper motor itself. If this is the case a non-volatile cleaner/lubricant should assist here. Visit your local music shop and ask for trumpet oil or valve oil.

If you get through these things and still have no joy, get back on this board (by the way welcome) and the right people will steer you in the right direction.

Let us know how you go. Cheers!
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:09 pm

Some cred for finding this site and asking for help
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:38 pm

1250 for the 8V is perfect. The map also raises the revs about ~300 when you pull the clutch in. The clunk is normal but the nudge forward isn't. Your clutch probably needs bleeding.

Remember, it's Italian. the handbook doesn't always reflect reality. Very Happy
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grisorosso
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:17 pm

Welcome, you haven't mentioned the model and capacity of your machine.
Specification for the 1200 8 valve is in the answer above.

If 1100, 1100rpm + or - 100rpm is the stated idle speed in the owners handbook and workshop manual.

Decide on your level of fettling competence prior to tackling or checking.
If you want to learn and equip yourself, then you're in the right place.

When was the clutch master and slave cylinder fluid last replaced?


Last edited by grisorosso on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:43 pm

GRiSO 1100 has 1200rpm defined in the map above 7 degree celcius

1200 grisio has 1200rpm too.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:46 pm

DO NOT TRY AND PHYSICALLY ADJUST THE IDLE SPEED BY MESSING ABOUT WITH SCREWS!

Now we have that out of the way everything said above should cover it. My guess is poorly adjusted TB balance for starters.

If bleeding the clutch doesn't work check the three screws holding the slave in place. They have been known to come loose.

Pete
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DungeonMaster
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:12 pm

I had a high idle issue for a bit. Then I got the bike serviced and she was sweet again.

DM
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Goodrug
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:18 am

Thanks to all for the interesting and helpful replies and your welcomes to the site.

I forgot to mention , my GRiSO is a 2009 1200 8v.

I was unaware that the ecu increases the revs when the clutch is held in, that probably explains why they creep up to (on the tacho) to 1300/1350rpm with the clutch held in, assuming the tacho is accurate.

So, based on the comments above, IS my tickover speed excessive? "beetle" says it's "perfect!"

These "modern" bikes with ecu's, throttle position sensors, etc, are new to me as most of my (present) bikes are from to 1970's, but I am capable of doing most things once I've read up on how. Balancing throttle bodies is not new to me either so I could have a look at this

I assume that the throttle bypass bleed screws are on the throttle bodies, could someone identify where to look for them so that I don't mess up as I'll see if one is "in" and the other is "out?" If all is well I'll return the screws to the initial positions.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:34 am

How many miles Km on your bike? Do you keep the oil at the 'Full' mark on the dipstick? Is the bike new to you?

I'm sure that there are instructions for a proper tune up here somewhere? If not there are other sites like Guzzitech that have good write ups on the procedure, I'd just advise skepticism about the promises made for some of the products being spruiked.

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:59 am

Have a look at this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There's some pics of the air bleeds. Either both will be closed or one open. If both are open, someone has messed with shit they ought not to.
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Goodrug
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:16 am

OK, I've had a look at the throttle bypass air bleed screws, and they are both open, albeit only by about 1/8th of a turn from closed. Do I close one?
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Goodrug
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:21 am

Pete Roper asked;How many miles Km on your bike? Do you keep the oil at the 'Full' mark on the dipstick? Is the bike new to you?
Yes it is new to me by about a month. It has 6500 miles or 10500km on it. The oil level appears to be near the top of the stick, although I haven't done a hot oil level check as advised by the manual.

I've had a look at the air bleed screws and they were both open, albeit only by about 1/8th of a turn, so which one do I close?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:28 am

You won't know which one to close until you give it a proper tune up. My guess is the poor thing has never been tuned correctly. Either find someone who knows what they're doing or get the necessary tools to do it yourself.

Set valves to six and eight thou. Then close the air bleeds, get the engine to over 60*C and do a balance at 4,000RPM using the bell crank screw. Re-set the TPS using Guzzidiag. Re-Start the motor and let it idle. Whichever side has the highest depression? Open the air bleed on that side until both sides show equal depression. Job done.

With the oil level? With the bike upright the level should be between the 'Add' mark and about half way to the 'Full' mark. Any more than this and it'll just pump it out into the airbox. Once you know you have the right amount in there simply put the bike on its sidestand and check the level again. Mark the stick there and that's your new 'Full' Mark checkable on the sidestand. Much easier.

Don't use cheap mineral oil. Use a full ester 10/60. If you use crap oil it will degrade in the cooling galleries in the heads and when it is sprayed under the crowns of the pistons. Chaos will ensue.

Being in England and coming into autumn I strongly suggest you read the 'Simply Briliant' thread and buil yourself an oil cooler baffle and fit a temperature guage dipstick. The irony is that although the oil gets obscenely hot in some parts of the motor these engines are generally grossly over-cooled and in winter keeping the overall oil temperature up is a right bastard!

Pete
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Goodrug
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:45 am

I'm now in possession of Guzzidiag and the appropriate cables required and have found using Guzzi diag that my tacho is reading slightly fast. When my tacho shows 1,300/1,350rpm, the rpm counter on Guzzidiag shows the engine to be idling at around 1,200 so in effect my first issue that I posted with has been resolved. Don't totally trust the rev counter.

I then went onto trying to balance the carbs at 3.5/4K and despite having a carbtune found that I was getting inconsistent readings. I'd swap the two rubber pipes over to other ports and swap the pipes between the two last used,  (I have the 4x Carbtune) and the differential between the two cylinders was always different by up to 1cm! So I can't trust my Carbtune.
Are there any other recommended balancers that anybody would recommend? If not I will make up my own "U" manometer with some plastic pipe using atf or similar,etc.

Thanks for all the assistance.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:44 am

Did you manage to sort this?

Pete
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Goodrug
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:33 pm

Pete wrote,Did you manage to sort this?

The tick-overspeed is OK being at the top end of the "standard parameters", and I am able to hook up to the ECU and TPS re-set etc, but I haven't been able to confirm if the throttles are in sync or not at 3.5-4K due to my problems with the Carbtune.

I have written to "Carbtune" and they suggest I follow their cleaning procedure and try again as Sean Morgan states, " it is very simple device with little to go wrong." I'm going to do this next week and go from there, but it runs well so I'm quite happy with it at the moment.

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grisorosso
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:48 pm

I ditched my Carbtune II, after a similar situation.
One of the sticks wouldn't read consistently, changing side to side produced the same result.
It was cleaned to within an inch if its life, as per the instructions, for no result.
I had the Carbtune II for nearly 15 years, admittedly using it only infrequently, so put the failure down to lack of use, hence the thorough detox.

It is a simple device, as am I, yet it refused to be accurate or consistent.
Now landfill.

Annoyed, I made a unit, the usual thing, 1/4" clear tubing, piece of wood ( bit of foam for the base and back  to stop sliding), rubber tubing for the hot end and a couple of bleed valves, some Castrol for Stihl 2-stroke oil and happy as a clam since.
Took me the best part of an hour, most of which spent finding a piece of refined wooden stick longer than firewood.
Cumbersome and ugly, accurate and cheap. At least I was able to utilise the rubber hose and the manifold fittings from the Carbtune II.


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Goodrug
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:14 am

richo, thanks for that info.
I did actually do a really quick half hearted clean of the Carbtune last week. I think I'm just going to go ahead and build my own which will be similar to yours. So I have a couple of questions please?

Did you use the restrictors from the Carbtune to "damp" the pulses?

Is it necessary to make the unit as tall as yours, and is this to "help" stop the engine suddenly drinking the chosen fluid if the throttles are way out?
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grisorosso
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: My tickover is too fast. Is it adjustable?   Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:09 am

Yes, I used the restrictors and some little taps at the top to close off the fluid when not in use to prevent spillage, if it fell over.

The piece of wood was a "straight edge" for lining up sheets when the shed was lined, it was the only piece of non firewood I had.
The inner tube holds the tubing when in storage. There's no need to mark off straight lines, you can see when the fluid level is even in the tubes.

You can probably make the unit shorter, another 12" or more would be okay.
I didn't bother to shorten the straight edge, the tubing was to hand.

Hope this helps.

cheers,
richo
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