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 I have a crazy idea...

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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:52 pm

GuzzIDiag and remapping has most of the red suspender brigade knotting their eyebrows already. Going full aftermarket ECU would have them breaking their corn-cob pipe stems.

The Link G4 products look good and I could have more fun than than a teenager in a cat house with a Gold Amex with one, but I simply don't have the time or energy to do it.  The 5AM is super tweak-able, and running open loop with a modified map keeps most of their suspenders from being snapped in a frenzy.

The Power Commnader idea was me thinking of more ways to tweak. I have other ideas in the mill to try and help those I can't build a custom map for. Of course, there may be a cost, which will get them suspenders a-snapping.  Razz
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fireblade
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:29 pm

Lol, I actually have suspenders on my motorcycle trousers! Good think they're black. Tbh that was something that motivated me to get rid of the miata - too much time and money. In hoping that the guzzidiag will let me have the fun without all the extra parameters involved in forced induction tuning. Seems to be a wealth of knowledge and practical experience on here which beats the 'he said she said'rubbish you get on a lot of these forms Very Happy

Individual coils should make life easier. I was originally tempted to look into a custom exhaust system most similar to the 1100 sport. Unfortunately a house move in the new year might knock that on the head for now. Plus I guess the oil cooler would get hot/in the way.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:39 am

At the end of the day I will still go to my fall-back argument. If you really want an incredibly larger amount of *Anything* be it power, torque, whatever? Surely it is much, much simpler to buy another motorbike!

My guess, and that is exactly what it is, a guess, is that the map I'm currently running in my bike makes a little bit more outright power than it did stock or with the 68S factory map. That though isn't the point. The thing that makes it all so special to me is the way that it rides. It's all about 'Rideability' and in all quantifiable ways that don't involve bragging about numbers it is Su-fucking-perb.

I'm sure that if you had a completely flexible system for mapping, coupled with different cams and probably hundreds of hours of testing you could make an 8V produce considerably more power and if you are a lot smarter than me *perhaps* keep at least some semblance of civility.

Why? For a fraction of the price you could buy a V4 Tuono, stick TI valves in it and add the second set of 'jectors to RSV-4-ify it, remap it a wee bit and you'd have something that produces near twice the power of a G8 with probably less than two thirds of the weight!

Trying to make an 8V into something it's not is silly. Look at the head design. The same principles that limit the smallblock motor are similarly limiting to the 8V. The head isn't a Herron type but it's still a side draft design with a very narrow included valve angle. That is great for combustion but lousy for breathing. AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT THAT! Like it or not to believe otherwise is a deranged fantasy.

Does this make the GRiSO a 'Bad' bike? Far from it. I believe it is one of, if not the best 'Road' bike I've ever ridden and while other people may sneer at its lowly power output and high weight I never seem to get to the pub significantly later than the sneerers be they on a Panigale, an R1 or any other 'Mighty Steed'.

The W5AM seems to be eminently tuneable given the right tools and skills. The Guzzi 8V can be made very, very enjoyable if it is what you want! If it isn't what you want no amount of fucking about with it will make it into something else.

If you want to chase that chimera? Fine, but it will be very hard and I'd guess, ultimately, unrewarding work. YOMV.

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:21 am

Pete, did you forget to take yer pills or have one beer too many? I'm the one who usually does all the pontificating 'round here. Very Happy


fireblade, there's no bullshit here with regard to tuning the GRiSO. Aye. Thumbs Up
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:23 am

Actually I wrote that *Before* I went to the pub, (I think???). Very Happy.

Oh, the cams and tappets I sent to Denmark arrived and testing has begun. Preliminary findings are its a de-lamination problem with the DLC on the foot of the tappets. Now the gentleman has to work out why.

See ya Sunday. Try not to reduce yourself to a state of slobbering imbecility or punch the groom at the wedding. Laughing

Pete
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:41 am

I'll try to be good. Cool
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tocino
Nibbio
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:27 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Surely it is much, much simpler to buy another motorbike!

I'm with you on this - many bikes over the years I've upgraded to "improve" them but at some point I relearn "if you want an X then get one". Usually it's when I realize I've spent tons of cash trying to "improve" something and still not reached the target.

Now I try and restrain myself from seeing things as "lacking-compared-to" and instead say "it is what it is". If I want something different, well then get another bike and leave the current one alone (of course I have a garage so that's doable).

Then things seen as flaws often become features or "character".
So the weight of the GRiSO? I like it - it's really planted and it's fun when you're really moving along on a fast tractor.
If I want lighter I have a Ducati 900SS.
If I want more character? I'll take the 850T or the Commando (engine bouncing in the frame? *that's* character. wet sumping? well not all character is good Smile).

As you say it's the rideability / experience - I had a Ducati S2R that I was so excited to get, and then let down when I couldn't cure the lean condition. Sold it. The GRiSO started out like that, but with GuzziDiag + Master Beetle it's really made it a fun bike.

I like it as an all rounder and wouldn't want to try and make it too much a tourer, or a finicky rocket, etc. etc. I've done that sort of thing before and then a bike I originally liked aint what is was anymore.

my 2c
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DungeonMaster
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:12 am

All right you trepidatious whack-a-mole; I just read your sig.

I have a bit of a conundrum that you just highlighted. I lust for a different bike.
One of these naked triples that lean deep enough to drag shoulders.
Like the Yamaha FZ09 or the MV Agusta Rivale.
While I love the chacter and handling of the GRiSO there is NO WAY to hide it's weight.
Maybe I will calm down after getting the suspension tuned.
I have 20,000 miles on my GRiSO and it needs fork oil change/rebuild and the Matris shock with stronger spring.
That should get me grinnin!!!!
But will that erase MV lust?

DM
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tocino
Nibbio
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:32 pm

Why not get the suspension done on the GRiSO AND get a triple? Twisted Evil

(A friend let me ride his Triumph 675 for a few miles and it felt sooo light and the acceleration and brakes were great - made me think "Maybe I need a silly fast bike?")
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:15 pm

Well DM & Tocino I can tell you the end result.
Currently you push your Guzzi till you approach it's design parameters and then think if you improve a few points it will be more pleasurable (handle better). Therefore It will be a safer bike to ride.
Alternatively you could buy a "silly fast" bike but nah, you'd just end up getting hurt.

So you buy high end suspension and it handles oh so sweet. End result you just start riding "silly fast" anyway, because you can. Been there done that, more than once.

If you want a light weight nimble Guzzi, research Ghezzi & Brian, I'm sure you would find a second hand Fionda or Furia (V11 engine) in the USA. If you do, don't tell me about it coz I would have to come over there, and kill you!

Toc, funny you mention a 675 Street triple. My mate has one and we swap often. Bella feels just like the 675 to throw around in the corners, all you need is a longer shock and some carbon fibre wheels. If you don't believe me, come for an Aussie holiday and we'll set you up with a three way test ride. GRiSO - 675 - Bella.

DM, if you buy a Matris do some serious research. The shock I got from a GT forum member who didn't install it, had a shorter stroke length than my stock (& GRiSO) shock. They are high end units built especially for racing. They come with very stiff springs and lots of pre-load as standard, unless you tell them you're a skinny soft cock tourer. If you are around 200-220lb I'd recommend an 11kg spring (110N/mm).
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:01 pm

Agree on the preload with the Matris. Mine is wound almost all the way off and I'm a fat bastard. The spring was specified for my weight but it is verging on the too heavy. As it is the Matris works really well.

At the moment I'm trying to save up enough money to get some yokes made for the Ohlins I bought but in all honesty I think they will be overkill and more 'Wank Factor' than anything is. Let's face it, I can't out-ride the GRiSO as I have it set up now.

Pete
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DungeonMaster
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:08 pm

Oh, don't worry. I have seen enough here to know that I need the spring to handle my 6'4" 205lbs correctly.
My stock rear spring is already tightened up to the max and I ride solo. I max that baby out without ANY additional "responsibilities"

DM
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:33 pm

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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:54 am

Pete, I've got a spare 12kg Matris spring for you if that is lighter than what ya got now.

DM, I'm same mass as you in a more compact package (short & fat), had an 11kg spring on my GRiSO shock which is now on Gil's (plantboy) bike. He loves it. S'pose he's similar weight.

Currently have 10kg on my Matris but have an 11kg on order.
Stock GRiSO spring is about 9.6kg
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Boysie
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:08 am

Seems this thread has changed direction ;-)... Anyway my opinion for what it's worth is that a GRiSO is what it is. and should be left that way...

If you want a bike that handles don't bother with a Street Triple there pretty disappointing.. Buy a KTM RC8, best handling bike I've ever ridden/owned.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:05 am

I guess my subtle hint didn't work. Stay on fucking topic!

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John Lyon
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:20 pm

Boysie wrote:
Seems this thread has changed direction ;-)... Anyway my opinion for what it's worth is that a GRiSO is what it is. and should be left that way...

I agree.  On the street, the GRiSO can stay with nearly anything, except on the straights against a high powered bike. However, I don't care about going fast on the straights - the fun is in the corners.  

The only thing is that the back can be a little loose and wallow a bit with the stock shock, especially on a rough road.  I'd like to fix that, but it's 95% good already.


Last edited by John Lyon on Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:49 pm

beetle wrote:
I have an idea that I've been thinking about for a while. It's a bit crazy, and uses a PCV & Autotune. Bear with me.

OK, the basic function of the PCV + Autotune is to intercept the injector pulse width commands form the ECU, add or subtract the values in the PC map and then apply the trims from the Autotune before sending the pulse commands to the injectors. The main issue with some of the approaches to using the PC is that the assumption is that 8V is underfuelled from the factory. This is a misconception.

The factory sets the map rich and then trims the heck out of it using the narrowband sensor to get it to pass emissions testing. It then runs a bit ordinary and well, underfuelled. The common fix is to pour fuel into it and say 'fixed'. The 8V does need a more rich AFR than the narrowband and factory trim allows and here is where the Autotune can come in handy. As it uses a wideband controller to trim to a set AFR value, we can use this to our advantage.

Here's what I propose: Flash a slightly modified factory map to an ECU with lambda off, and a couple of other tweaks. Install a map in the PCV with values of zero, i.e. the PCV map does not modify the injector values. We then use the Autotune to trim the base zero values in the PC map to effectively trim the ECU map injection pulse widths to produce an AFR value of our choosing.


Suspect



Well?

That topic?
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PostSubject: Re: I have a crazy idea...   Today at 1:42 am

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