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 More observations on 8V cam failures.

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:55 am

Interestingly I'm finally beginning to see cam failures coming through in my shop. Things that are worth noting.

1.) The failures are all occurring in spring after a wet winter.

2.) They usually manifest themselves immediately after a service. I have no certain idea why. The only thing I can think of is that the high carbon content of the dirty oil may contribute some form of added protection and once new, clean oil is in circulation it all goes pear shaped very quickly.

3.) Engines seem to start misbehaving long before there is visible damage to the tappets but at the same time similar wear patterns on functioning cams do not seem to necessarily be terminal. For example I inspect my cams and tappets about every six to nine months and while they have a similar 'Pattern' on their nose circles, (Which is where the cam failures begin oddly, rather than the opening flank as I'd expect.) but my great lump of Munt soldiers on seemingly impregnably!?!

4.) Long before the valves become really noisy signs of the demise of the cams and tappets will begin to manifest themselves by firstly misfiring and hesitation as the throttle is opened with no load at about 2,000-2,500 rpm, this is easy to overlook if you don't know what you're listening for. Secondly the engine will start spitting back through the throttle bodies, this can be both seen and heard, at idle. A drop of engine speed and a 'Chuff' accompanied by the physical rearward movement of the TB's between the boot to the manifold and trumpet to airbox.

To paraphrase our ridiculous governments propaganda about chanting fanatics be alert but not alarmed. Keep your oil hot and ride 'em hard. They'll be far less likely to fail if you thrash 'em!

Pete
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Guzzi Cat
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:05 am

Any particular model year or does it not seem to matter the year if the oil is not kept to a hot temp?

I am definitely ordering one of them oil temp gauges this week as we get a SMALL drop of rain on this side of the world, Laughing

Guzzi Cat,
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:08 am

No particular year or model. Interestingly though I'm only just now beginning to see the problem in my shop and I get probably more than my fair share of 8V's through.

The interesting fact to me is that we have just had a very damp winter. The Canberra region is one of the driest areas of the driest inhabited continent on earth and even though it gets perishingly cold here in winter it is rare for us to have as much rain as we've had this last winter and spring. This year has been cold but most importantly wet. Now I'm seeing failures. I'd already established the oil temperature problems associated with low ambient temps and water-cooling of the sump. All this new info is doing is confirming my beliefs.

Make sure you have a full service history and the factory will honour a replacement. If the bike is out of warranty? You will have to pay for installation. No service history and you can whistle! The kits aren't cheap.

Pete
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Scot p
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:44 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
No particular year or model. Interestingly though I'm only just now beginning to see the problem in my shop and I get probably more than my fair share of 8V's through.

The interesting fact to me is that we have just had a very damp winter. The Canberra region is one of the driest areas of the driest inhabited continent on earth and even though it gets perishingly cold here in winter it is rare for us to have as much rain as we've had this last winter and spring. This

Pete

Excellent , so my bike will last forever, any sign of rain and we stay in the house...

cya
Scot.
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Canyon Carver
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:27 pm

What's the average mileage where you notice problems? I have a 2012 with 5,300 miles.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:00 pm

Ther is no average. Sorry.

Pete
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:59 pm

Well my 09 shit the bed at 36K miles and the recall was done right before the bike was sold to me new.
Most failures though, occur way sooner than that but there isn't a particular mileage point where one can base or catch symptoms upon.
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odder
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:19 pm

Wonder if valving off the oil cooler or fabing up a block for cool/wet weather.
Still need to pick up a good oil temp gauge Idea
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:35 pm

You need to have the oil from the cooler to cool the exhaust valve seats otherwise you'll drop the head off an exhaust valve. The problem is that generally the flow through the cooler means that in cold weather the oil is grossly over-cooled.

Pete
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:02 pm

Pete, as well as the oil cooler vent blocker discussed elsewhere on the forum, instead of the dipstick temp gauge, would it be feasible to fit a digital temp sender unit at the cooler exit point with a handlebar/dash mounted display unit. Or am I getting annul again?
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:06 pm

Wayne, please refer to conversations on anal bleaching held over the last weekend - sorry I forgot, you didn't come.
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1151
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:59 pm

Canyon Carver wrote:
What's the average mileage where you notice problems? I have a 2012 with 5,300 miles.

My 2012 coughed up in August at about the 10,000 km mark. I was notified of the damage to the cam rollers while it was having it's 10k service and with only 2 months left on the warranty.

For the record, I have not ridden in the rain. I have ridden up through mid-nov. (some short trips but most more than 20-25kms each way) when temps are at about 8-15deg.. Storage has been a mix of indoor for winter and covered outdoor spring thru late fall.

Just prior to being notified of the tappet / cam failure I had hit a high point for mileage. The fuel warning indicator made it to just about 200 kms before coming on. I was quite surprised. The engine did not seem to run poorly but as I have mentioned before, I was not sure what I should be listening for. I did notice a slightly different sound to the engine but kept questioning whether or not it was just in my head.

Also - she was backfiring quite a bit when earlier on she was not.

FWIW
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odder
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:49 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
You need to have the oil from the cooler to cool the exhaust valve seats otherwise you'll drop the head off an exhaust valve. The problem is that generally the flow through the cooler means that in cold weather the oil is grossly over-cooled.

Pete

Thanks Pete.
I though about threading in a removable block off
Plate on the front side of the cooler for colder weather.
It's such a nice bike, even better if it could be 4 seasons.
Rougly 9000mi on rollers, no mayo as of 6 weeks ago

The temp oil gauge could read in 3 levels: more foreplay, just...keep...going, and aye captain she's gonna blow.

I'm a noob here, guess I'll have to look for the bleaching thread...
Pillage!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:58 pm

As far as I can ascertain the roller conversion cures the problem. Why? No certainty but the fact that contact betwixt roller and cam is, well, a rolling motion rather than a sweeping/sliding one would seem to be the obvious thing.

Regardless of that it is important that the oil be able to sublime off moisture that gets into it. Therefore using *Something* to occlude the cooler and reduce its efficacy in winter has to be a good thing.

Am I right on any of this? Who knows? But I have been monitoring and gathering information on the tappet failure phenomenon from a global perspective for as long as the 8V has been in production. I may not have the answers but I can assure you that I have accumulated an awful lot of data and it all points to my analysis being viable. At least I'm doing some analysis rather than just flapping my flippers and whining that the factory should 'Do Something' which seems to be the usual modus operandi of those who don't service their bikes per book and then complain when stuff goes tits.

It really gets a bit fucking aggravating when semi-skilled scientists who may of seen inside one 8V, usually their own, but often never having taken one apart at all, decide that they know better than me. I don't have all the answers and I may well be wrong but I at least have the experience and dare I say it the skills to make a valid assessment based on physical evidence I've observed first hand from many engines.

It's like people whose answer to all the mapping issues is to simply 'Put in more fuel because they're all running lean'. It's crap diagnosis leading to pointless conclusions. Probably though it's what the world deserves.

Pete
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:19 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Interesting thread from GuzziTech - note claim that Stelvio already has a thermostat
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Phang
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:38 am

I am having my dinner with limited internet and computer access but I am quite sure the thermostat in the Stelvio manual is the extract from 1100 engine shop manual.
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Guzziboy66
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:45 am

]My 2012 coughed up in August at about the 10,000 km mark. I was notified of the damage to the cam rollers while it was having it's 10k service and with only 2 months left on the warranty.

For the record, I have not ridden in the rain. I have ridden up through mid-nov. (some short trips but most more than 20-25kms each way) when temps are at about 8-15deg.. Storage has been a mix of indoor for winter and covered outdoor spring thru late fall.

Just prior to being notified of the tappet / cam failure I had hit a high point for mileage. The fuel warning indicator made it to just about 200 kms before coming on. I was quite surprised. The engine did not seem to run poorly but as I have mentioned before, I was not sure what I should be listening for. I  did notice a slightly different sound to the engine but kept questioning whether or not it was just in my head.

Also - she was backfiring quite a bit when earlier on she was not.



Wait.  Are you saying your Roller Cam equipped engine was starting to fail?  This is the first time I recall reading of any problem with a roller cam engine.  Did I miss something?

Eric
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Guzzi Cat
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:53 am

Any one know if the oil cooled BMW boxer engines suffer from over cooling in wet damp climates or have they a built in thermostat valve? scratch
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Phang
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:16 am

Guzzi Cat wrote:
Any one know if the oil cooled BMW boxer engines suffer from over cooling in wet damp climates or have they a built in thermostat valve? scratch

I owned a R1150R for a couple of years. No over cooling issue as for as I know.

Yes, it has a thermostatic valve in the cooling oil circuit.

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LBC Tenni
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:23 am

The mighty GRiSO has an Achilles heel. Shame on the engineers for overlooking this.

Dare I ask what the roller kit would cost for a bike that's out of warranty?
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Guzzi Cat
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:28 am

Phang wrote:


I owned a R1150R for a couple of years. No over cooling issue as for as I know.

Yes, it has a thermostatic valve in the cooling oil circuit.

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Thanks for that Phang,

I was just curious as the two engines seem fairly similar in design with an oil cooling set up and their lovely big jugs stuck out in the breeze, maybe the thermostatic valve is doing the trick!!

Guzzi Cat,
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Phang
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:46 am

Guzzi Cat wrote:


Thanks for that Phang,

I was just curious as the two engines seem fairly similar in design with an oil cooling set up and their lovely big jugs stuck out in the breeze, maybe the thermostatic valve is doing the trick!!

Guzzi Cat,

No problem Guzzi Cat.

It puzzles me too, not to mention the boxer ran on dino 20W50 scratch
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1151
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:05 pm

"Wait. Are you saying your Roller Cam equipped engine was starting to fail? This is the first time I recall reading of any problem with a roller cam engine. Did I miss something?

Eric"

Hey Eric,

No, I purchased my bike new in Oct. 2012 with the flat tappet system. I had to get them replaced recently with the roller upgrade. Seems to work beautifully. I think I'm seeing less mileage though but have been prepared for this as the parts are heavier as I have been told.

Cheers
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:23 pm

I wouldn't think that fuel economy would be noticeably affected by the increased weight of the roller system, it's biggest issue would be valve float issues at higher RPM and it's one of the reasons I've put off installing my kit, (Apart from the facts that I'm a lazy bastard and I'm also keen to actually get my bike to fail.). Thing is Steak I'm sure is not shy of banging is thing off the limiter and it hasn't bent a valve yet so I think I'm just being paranoid.

At the end of the day I have yet to hear of anybody having any issues with the roller top end apart from the one bloke here who reckons his replacement kit was faulty. I still reckon it's best to keep the oil temperature up but the roller top end seems a lot less susceptible to damage than the earlier flat tappet set-up.

Pete

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PostSubject: Re: More observations on 8V cam failures.   Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:57 pm

Hey Pete,

Not sure if you were referring to me re. "the bloke here...kit was faulty". If you are, I think Frypan would have a better idea than I if the replacement roller upgrade kit was actually faulty or not as he got to hold and inspect it at the dealer while the service was being performed.

FWIW - according to him, "The only thing I noticed about the roller cam box unit was how stiff it was to turn over the cam due to the belville washer preload. I could barely turn the cam over by hand. That seemed very strange to me and it would definitely suck up power."

They tried two new kits with the same issue. I believe a third kit was installed in the end along with some other minor tweaks.

Anyhow, I got all bent out of shape concerning MG's quality control primarily because of the issues the dealer was having with the new kit install and their comments that perhaps they were possibly machined out of spec??

Just very happy that she rolls so well now!

cheers


.
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