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 Bad Vibrations.

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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


Posts : 1699
Join date : 2014-05-22
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:16 pm

Did my 30k service today.

Dear Mr Roper, this is what I found.
Diff oil was clear, no residue or metal in bottom in drain bowl.
Dumped both engine and gearbox oil into same bowl, (yeah, didn't think about that). Let sit 48 hours then drained slowly leaving some very fine metal particles in the bottom. Some blind Freddy could see. Carefully examined and cleaned sump when changing oil filter, spotless, no debris.

Therefore I assume all metal particles came from my gearbox, have left these in my drain bowl for now. What say ye?

Ride till the next cabal and let you feel the symptoms?
Ride till it becomes obvious something is about to break?
Send you the gearbox either then or now?
Send you the whole bike?
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Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO


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Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:43 pm

Wayne, to be honest I have no idea. There is always debris in gearboxes, it really depends on what the debris is and if it's just wear or is more serious.

The Nuovo Six Speeds are generally bulletproof. I've only had one in bits in nine years! Advice is hard to give when one comes up against a problem for the first time.

Pete
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:47 pm

In that case I'll just keep riding until it becomes obvious failure is imminent, or something goes Bang!

Might drop the gear oil in a few thousand km's and have it tested, meanwhile, see you at the next cabal.

PM me your address so I can send ya parts back.
thanx mate
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:17 pm

Two other options Wayne.

1.) I have a disassembled but complete Breva box in the garage, this actually has higher gearing than your box so it might interest you. I could throw that together and send it up to you to swap out if you like?

2.) I could send you the splitter tool to take the box apart and you could have at it yourself.

Option 3.) combine both so you aren't off the road too long.

Pete
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


Posts : 1699
Join date : 2014-05-22
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:26 pm

It would be good if I knew what I was looking at, or looking for as nothing is currently obvious.
Stock gearing feels right for my 76rwhp, higher gearing may be a negative. Hold on to that splitter tool, will make a decision which way to go when destruction is imminent, or past tense.
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


Posts : 1699
Join date : 2014-05-22
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:15 pm

Vibes are now noticeable in 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th gears and can now be felt thru the whole bike. (low tempo cyclical like a chain tight spot).
Still only happens at lower revs but during both light acceleration and deceleration. (I'm guessing 3,000rpm). Pull the clutch and it freewheels quietly/smoothly.

Already checked diff and tried another tail shaft/uni's.

Not confident it would survive the 1500k cabal weekend. so my options are;
A. Ute it down and back and give Pete a chance to ride and diagnose it.
B. Find the nearest Guzzi expert now. Who?
C. Put it on local dyno to see, hear, feel and get a 2nd opinion from a non-Guzzi expert.
D. Continue riding ....................................  Suspect   pale

What are the symptoms prior to clutch disintegration?
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The Saint
Biondino
Biondino


Posts : 238
Join date : 2014-12-04

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:38 pm

That's a damn shame Wayne. I think it's worth while having second set of eyes look at it. If you are worried about your clutch I might be able to give you a hand Wednesday or Thursday night.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:29 pm

Wayne, why not just pull the gearbox and examine the clutch? I don't think it will be the clutch but that is an easy option. I can lend you the clutch aligning tool and the gearbox splitting tool if you want to have a look yerself.

As I've said though the Nuovo Six Speed has proven stupidly reliable. I really have no bloody idea what might be wrong or what to even look for!

Pete
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio


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Age : 62

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:41 pm

When all else fails, Wayne - put it on the uete - you will be paid out but you will be anyway...
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:45 pm

If the symptoms were definitive or something was actually broken I could easily sort it, but having less ability than your good self Pete, I wouldn't have a clue what I'm looking for, or at.
It cruises beautifully at highway speeds any gear, squirting through the upper rev range any gear and it just sings the Mandello Aria.

Al, come over anytime as I'd appreciate a second , third and fourth opinion.

Pete, have you got Sean's Ph & address, I can ute the bike to him also for pre-strip diagnosis.

Tony, Bella's second name is "Blue" .................. for obvious reasons.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:15 pm

Yah, Sean's number is 0466 346 002. I think he's in Toowoomba now. For any of you Northern Savages Sean is the real deal. He's particularly keen on 'Prillas but isn't averse to Guzzi work. Knows his onions and isn't a shaved ape.

Pete
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The Saint
Biondino
Biondino


Posts : 238
Join date : 2014-12-04

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:48 pm

Pete is he permanently in Toowoomba?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:23 pm

As far as I know? Give him a ring on Monday. He is a far better option than anybody else in SE Qld. Especially on anything built since dinosaurs ruled the earth.

Pete
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plantboy
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio


Posts : 200
Join date : 2014-05-31
Age : 68

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:58 pm

The Saint wrote:
Pete is he permanently in Toowoomba?
Alan, afaik Sean is still working at A1 Service & Repair ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  ph. 0755272366  3/46 Lawrence Dr Nerang.  The mob no Pete gave above is the easiest way to contact him.  He lives on the southern Gold Coast somewhere - Pete's qld geography may be a little scratchy.
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:04 am

I spoke with Sean today, he lives in Harbour Town, north end of Gold Coast. I have to do a few things to my bike first and take both it and the RSV4 down to him.
I just assumed he was self employed, have to ask next time.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:19 am

Nah, Gil, he's gone freelance. I know that much. He phoned me up to tell me.

Pete
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plantboy
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio


Posts : 200
Join date : 2014-05-31
Age : 68

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:13 am

Thanks pete, its only a few weeks since he serviced my bike.   I got the the impression that while he was servicing my bike at A1 he was actually working for himself anyway.  Things certainly change fast - a bit confusing, just hope he can make a go of whatever he is up to.  We don't want to lose someone like him up here.
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The Saint
Biondino
Biondino


Posts : 238
Join date : 2014-12-04

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:23 am

Damn. I'm yet to get my service book stamped. Maybe my next ride will be god forsaken Toowoomba.

Pete, if Wayne is willing to rip the box out, you could send the said tools with the Ago.
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


Posts : 1699
Join date : 2014-05-22
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:57 am

Hey, don't jump the gun guys.
1. Sean is on the Gold Coast.
2. He's busy this week.
3. Al, hope you make it here this week, a 2nd opinion, a different description may bring a diagnosis.
4. Sean wants me to check a few things first.
5. Then maybe next week I'll get him to test ride it.

After that we'll form a plan. Personally, while I'm capable of doing it I'm also of the age where I'd rather somebody else did the hard labour.....................................

Dumb thing is, cruising at 100kph its perfect.

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The Saint
Biondino
Biondino


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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:15 am

Sure thing Wayne. I'll visit this week sometime.
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:33 pm

Ok, I'm pretty sure I have a drive train bearing problem, a grumble/growl that comes and goes depending on the load, as in 3rd to 6th gear bottom of the torque range. Possibly 2,750rpm (no tacho). Cruising 100kph everything is fine.

Pre-empting splitting cases at a minimum to access clutch ......................................
Would love to fit alloy flywheel ......................$? Any negatives to that mod?
Apart from rear main seal and gearbox input/output seals (and quite possibly a full bearing set), what else should I be doing while in there?

Moving on and looking at my parts/service pdf.
Gear positions on the shafts from input end are;
1 - 5 - 3/4 - 6 - 2

The growling/vibe whatever started with 3rd and 4th gear, which are in the middle of the shaft. I had suspected the Ball bearings on either end of the shaft. But;
The 3/4 gear on the 'primary shaft' is a single unit with internal spline. (no bearings)
However, the two individual corresponding gears (3rd & 4th) on the 'driven shaft' have an inner "Roller cage 26x30x15,6" # GU92252029.
These same roller bearings are used for 5th and 6th gears on the 'primary gear shaft'. And the growl/vibes/shudder are now happening in the top 2 gears.

I suspect that if all the small roller bearings fail, then 2nd gear will be the next to complain. Unless of coarse, I'm totally off with the fairies?????????????????
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


Posts : 1699
Join date : 2014-05-22
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:14 pm

Ok, rear wheel balanced, needed 50g.
Last TB sync was done by Procycle Dyno about 6 months ago when I added the K&N rock catcher, to retune the PC-V.
Seemed to be a little bother getting sync right, (not perfect), didn't see any TPS readings or if it was adjusted.
I watched as the whole dyno process was done. AFR's were spot on. Fred spent a lot of time on the minor % of throttle position. Bike ran faultlessly.

Sean suggested I get these checked again by Fred, but I went to Tommy Newell as he should at least understands the nuances of the Guzzi systems.

Tom gave my cables a little more free play so he could play with individual idle adjustments. He seemed to get a better balance between the dancing lights compared to Fred, (still not perfect).
TPS was originally reading 3.7, Tommy adjusted it to 4.7 to "richen it up across the rev range". Personally, I think extra richness is unnecessary.

Vibes/growl is still there from 3rd gear. Tom believes its a harmonics/resonance problem as my whole bike and exhaust system is lighter. He was not able to test ride for medical reasons. He suggested I remove one of my mid pipe exhaust brackets and add the original handle bar end weights.

Any advice?
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio


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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:34 pm

Might be some truth in what Tommy is saying, Wayne. Mate of mine has a 1200 Sport (same as mine). Both bikes were manufactured in April 2007 - both bikes are (slightly) different though, and we swapped a few times and they did behave differently - more from his perspective - I aint that sensitive.

Anyway he got a new exhaust and had lots of trouble with footpeg vibration. In the end he put the exhaust onto the headers with a piece of the carbon stuff originally used on the Sports, muffler to header, connection - vibes disappear.

I never did have any vibe problems until I purchased a muffler from GuzziTech - this also mount (sleeves) straight onto the headers - ie no gasket to absorb vibes - now I have vibes over 6 grand, which only became noticeable as Beetle and I were searching for 2V Nirvana. It's still there but much reduced as the fuelling got better - went from too rich to just right - vibes are lesser but still there.

Some years ago I put 25mm risers under the handlebar mounts - bad vibes. Ended up making some heavier bar end weights in the lathe. They were slightly different weights so the heavier one went on the R/H side as this was the worst. Much improved but still a bit tingly depending on high revs.

I know this doesn't need to be said, BUT ONLY DO ONE THING AT A TIME from here on in. Tommy is old's kool so he might just be onto something...
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:40 pm

Well I'm hoping it is just harmonics coz I can ride around it and forget about it.
Just ride till it blows  .................... sounds good in theory but the closer it gets to (possible) imminent destruction, the less I ride and the less enjoyment I get, when I ride.

Hey Pete, just as a worse case scenario back-up plan, how much for that spare gearbox you got?
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:02 pm

Paid Sean a visit this afternoon, he took it for a good ride and pronounced it healthy. He is satisfied there are no drive train bearing problems but could definitely feel the vibes thru the seat.

Any ladies for a test ride?

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PostSubject: Re: Bad Vibrations.   Today at 1:41 am

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