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zathruss
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 30
Join date : 2014-12-27

PostSubject: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:51 pm

Want to upgrade my exhaust system, don't like the stock one. I've heard different stories about flashing the computer and remapping. Some people say must be done, some people say "run with it and make adjustments as needed". I've heard both good and bad. Just need some advice on what to do.
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Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO


Posts : 3780
Join date : 2013-05-30
Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:11 pm

Welcome.

Firstly I suggest you go and read the Tuning with Guzzidiag thread and then the Exhaust Thread.

Long story short. Yes you can quite happily run an aftermarket can, some are better than others, they will all work. Some will work a lot better than others if you use the dB killer and all will function without doing anything to the mapping.

BUT

Remapping will pay huge dividends in terms of rideability. There are a number of options, most are fairly pricey and some are sold by charlatans who don't have a clue what they are doing. One thing to be aware of is that ofeople say that their bikes run splendidly but their fuel economy is worse than it is when stock then their bike isn't mapped or tuned properly.

Before embarking on any of the expensive aftermarket options I would strongly suggest that you Aquire the cables and download Guzzidiag and the associated Reader and Writer programmes. Full details of this and how to do it are in the 'Tuning with Guzzidiag' thread and all that is asked is a donation to the developers.

After this you can ask here and one of us can supply you with a map to suit your bike. It won't be a 'Perfect' custom built map but it will be pretty damn close and as long as your bike is set up properly and in a good state of tune it will give you greatly improved Rideability and probably improved fuel economy to boot. No claims are made for more power, you can judge for yourself on that score. Once again the cost for this is no more than a donation is asked for to help defray development costs.

I will re-iterate though that your bike MUST be tuned properly otherwise no amount of remapping or fiddling about with it will make it run any better.

Since you're in BC I would think that if you need help you can probably nip South of the border and go and see Steve or some of the Seattle push who I'm sure will be more than happy to give you a hand if needed.

Pete
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beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO


Posts : 3972
Join date : 2013-10-01

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:29 pm

If you are only changing the muffler (or silencer if you prefer) and the muffler has a catcon and a dB killer, the ECU will cope to a certain extent and trim the fueling to compensate as best it can. You may be quite happy with the result.

If the muffler only has a dB killer, the ECU may not be able to trim that well, and the result may not be that great, depending on how fussy you are. Some folks will ride and be happy.

If you are changing the midpipe, you will need to have it remapped.


You don't specify what type of pipe you will be installing, but if it is going to be an noisy open pipe I highly recommend you reconsider. The 8V does not respond well to a open exhaust.

If you can tell me what you are planning, I can tell you whether you'll be OK or absolutely require a remap.

Welcome to the Ghetto.  ghetto
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beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO


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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:31 pm

..and Pete beat me to it. Very Happy
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zathruss
Carlotto
Carlotto


Posts : 30
Join date : 2014-12-27

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:18 pm

Thank you all. I am going to run an agostini hydroformed DK steel slip on with a power commander or something similar so I could have a certain amount of tuning. The bike is a 2013 GRiSO. bought it new in 2014. Love the bike. Put 7000 km on it this summer. Any help on proper tuning would be great and appreciated. I also have an opportunity to dyno test at no cost. I was thinking this may help on getting the bike to run at its peak. Looking forward to any info you can pass on.
Thank you.
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Pete Roper
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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:39 pm

Why waste money on the PC without trying the better options first? Really. We've done the PC/AT thing and found it wanting. They can also be responsible for dangerous overfuelling in certain circumstances.

Pete
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beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO


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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:50 pm

IMO the power commander is not the best solution for 8V GRiSO. I'm not going to go into specifics, but I've never seen a good PC solution on a GRiSO. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the usual practices simply don't work on the 8V.

O2 foolers and similar black box kludges are also a bad idea.

Does your dyno guy use a Rexxer system or similar for mapping? If they can directly edit the map in the ECU, then it's possible they can produce a good map for the Agostini. However, they will need to address more than just the main fuel map and main ignition map. To get the best possible solution the delta-fuel, air-pressure-temp and fuel-engine-temp tables plus the warm-up map all need to be modified. Anything else is going to be half-arsed and you'll probably end up with poor fuel economy or poor running in the mountains, or it will run great in summer and crap in winter.

Lambda must be switched off or any tuning will be for nought. The dyno guy will need to pull his head in and do as they're told or the result will not be good.  I may sound like a know-it-all, but it's because I do. I have a reputation of being egotistical and pretentious when it comes to GRiSO fueling, but my results speak for themselves.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:02 pm

It's not egotistical or pretentious to disagree with 'Accepted Wisom' when the accepted wisdom is wrong Mark. It was as obvious to the nose on my face that the way the PCV/AT system, and it seems the Rexxer, are commonly used was a.) not delivering what it was claimed to do and b.) was, if used as suggested, causing over fuelling and in some cases in such quantities as to be worrisome. The Syelvio I have in my workshop that is my next big job is testament to exactly how much damage can be done if one believes what one is told rather than what one can clearly observe. Unfortunately convincing others of this fact can be difficult.

What I really can't understand is WHY it is difficult? As you say the results speak for themselves. All I can assume is because people aren't having their wallets raped they think a product is valueless! I'm afraid I can offer no explanation for such thinking.

There is no fee for this statement. Very Happy


Last edited by Pete Roper on Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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beetle
GRiSO
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:18 pm

Hehe. No,  I said that 'cos I can't be buggered with arguing with people anymore. It's my way or the highway from now on.

I picked on Rexxer because it's unlikely his dyno guy will use GuzziDiag. Very Happy
The Rexxer system is in itself not a bad thing, it's how it's applied and how the maps are built that generally sucks.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:38 pm

I know even less about Rexxer than I do Tuner Pro but I do know how engines work and can extrapolate backwards from what I'm observing to understand what the map must be trying to do. It's then I'll run it past you for confirmation, or the alternative, which is where you look at me like I've just grown an extra head!Very Happy

Really though, if a bike is only getting 15km/l I don't give a shit if the owner reckons it goes like a cut cat and his Dyno tells him it's making twelvty-zillion horsepower the simple fact is it will be running blubberingly rich and rich mixtures DON'T make decent power, even though they may be deceptively smooth which may make them think their bikes are well tuned. Sure if you are running WOT in top for ages you can get through fuel at that rate but most of us don't spend all our time on the 'Old' track at Hockenhiem!
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beetle
GRiSO
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:41 pm

That's why I said to zathruss that he will need to tell the dyno guy to do as he's told and not what he thinks is right. Target AFR for the 8V isn't the same as other engines.

With regard to the Ago hydroform, I'm more than happy to build a map for it but I'll need the pipe to do it. I aint gonna buy one, but if someone sends me one, I'll do it.

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Guzziboy66
Grignapoco
Grignapoco


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Age : 50

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:22 pm

beetle wrote:
That's why I said to zathruss that he will need to tell the dyno guy to do as he's told and not what he thinks is right. Target AFR for the 8V isn't the same as other engines.

With regard to the Ago hydroform, I'm more than happy to build a map for it but I'll need the pipe to do it. I aint gonna buy one, but if someone sends me one, I'll do it.


I hope someone in OZ has this pipe and sends it to you. I have the pipe, but seems like sending it from East coast USA to you (and back) would be expensive? How much do you reckon?

Eric
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beetle
GRiSO
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:00 am

Eric, probably half as much as the cost of the pipe. Too much! If I got a lot of interest and those interested were willing to make a donation to offset costs, and I could get a good deal on one I might be willing to buy one. I could probably resell it here and if I were to break even with the re-sale and donations, I'd be happy. It's a popular pipe.
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wardest
Grignapoco
Grignapoco


Posts : 107
Join date : 2014-04-30
Age : 47

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:58 am

I am keen on the Ago hydroform
I cant seem to find one in stock anywhere , There is a full carbon for sale at AF1.

I would be interested in a map and if I need the exhaust delivered to Wagga Wagga first. Why not ??
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tocino
Nibbio
Nibbio


Posts : 556
Join date : 2014-06-22

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:00 am

Guzziboy66 wrote:

I hope someone in OZ has this pipe and sends it to you.  I have the pipe, but seems like sending it from East coast USA to you (and back) would be expensive?  How much do you reckon?

Eric

I might could do a few logging runs with it (I have the data-collection setup). I'm in DC so shipping would be a lot less than the-land-where-everything-is-poisonous Smile

I wouldn't be able to until next Spring however, which is just when you'll be wanting to have it on your own bike Smile I have to finish helping Mark get the Zard (no cat) map finished.

Eric, does your pipe have the catalytic converter in it?

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Guzziboy66
Grignapoco
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Age : 50

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:03 am

tocino wrote:
Guzziboy66 wrote:

I hope someone in OZ has this pipe and sends it to you.  I have the pipe, but seems like sending it from East coast USA to you (and back) would be expensive?  How much do you reckon?

Eric

I might could do a few logging runs with it (I have the data-collection setup). I'm in DC so shipping would be a lot less than the-land-where-everything-is-poisonous Smile

I wouldn't be able to until next Spring however, which is just when you'll be wanting to have it on your own bike Smile  I have to finish helping Mark get the Zard (no cat) map finished.

Eric, does your pipe have the catalytic converter in it?

Yup - cat con and db killer in.
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Pete Roper
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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:38 am

Want me to see what I can get one of these pipes for? I get a bit of discount at many places and as long as I don't end up out of pocket I'm more than happy to tip in some hours to getting a pipe delivered and it can be on-sold afterwards.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:14 am

Worth investigating Pete.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:45 pm

Looks like about $900 to a grand to get one here.

Pete
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ghezzi
Fra Cristoforo
Fra Cristoforo


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Age : 59

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:29 pm

Pete, just learnt a valuable import lesson.
Ordered a new helmet from overseas, thought to add some accessories to save a bit of freight money.
The whole shebang was AUD$1070. Cost me an extra $170 in GST and customs duties when landed here.

Hindsight - much cheaper if I did two separate orders and paid 2 lots of freight, escaping attention from Customs on individual transactions under AUD$1000
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http://www.biketowbrisbane.com.au
The Saint
Biondino
Biondino


Posts : 238
Join date : 2014-12-05

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:33 pm

beetle wrote:
Eric, probably half as much as the cost of the pipe. Too much! If I got a lot of interest and those interested were willing to make a donation to offset costs, and I could get a good deal on one I might be willing to buy one. I could probably resell it here and if I were to break even with the re-sale and donations, I'd be happy. It's a popular pipe.

Mate. I just found out that the ago I ordered is in the country, so I should have it in my hands any day now. I would be glad to send it down to you at my cost if you want to play with it. Just don't put too many scratches on it.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:44 pm

How much was it landed out of interest?
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The Saint
Biondino
Biondino


Posts : 238
Join date : 2014-12-05

PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:51 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
How much was it landed out of interest?

$800. I didn't order online, I kindly asked Springwood to get it.
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The Saint
Biondino
Biondino


Posts : 238
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:54 pm

Probably not the best price in the world, but when you consider possible damage, warranty and convenience, i was happy.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Exhaust systems   Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:33 pm

I was actually hoping Pete might be willing to do the logging runs for me with his G. I Would need to reinstall the original headers and midpipe on mine. Right now I'm finishing re tweaking my map to get some of the bottom end back. Plus I've got a 1200 Sport to remap as well.
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