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 Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:29 pm

Well I seem to have jinxed myself good and proper! I rode to Sydney today and noticed when I got there that on the over-run the bike sounded a bit noisy. Got back to Bungendore, had a beer and got back on to ride home without ear plugs in. FUCK ME DRUNK! On the over-run it's howling like a banshee!

Only on the over-run mind so it might just be the pinion nut on the CARC come loose. Draining the oil tomorrow will tell the tale.

Serves me right for saying the gearboxes are bulletproof! Rolling Eyes Laughing

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:44 am

Might still be bulletproof. Have you tried shooting a gun at it? Sorry for taking a piss. That's a bummer. Hopefully it's not a major drama.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:45 pm

The more I think about it the more convinced I am it's the pinion nut. I know of several cases of them coming loose. Thing is if you get it quickly and the damage isn't too severe it's a quick and easy fix. Ride it to death and it'll be very expensive!

The gearboxes have proven to be very reliable and usually gearbox problems will manifest themselves in other more obvious ways than simply howling on the over-run. Poor gear selection or spat off teeth or dogs are a far more terminal situation.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:29 pm

Good thing you are competent and equipped to tackle the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:16 pm

Well, it was the pinion nut.

Swapped the bridge for a new one out of one of my many spares and took the precaution of removing the nut and loctiting the fuck out of it before I swapped it over.

All good. No more howly-howly! cheers

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:16 pm

Meanwhile back at the ranch, I thought I saw a post previously on how to disassemble the CARC.
Hopeless prick I am, from searching I've found several threads on "howling diffs" but no links to Pete's step by step photographic strip down ........................................ just so I can check my nuts (cough).
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:35 pm

Wayne, you can check the pinion nut by eye and with a small screwdriver. Look down the tube at the front of the CARC unit and you can see the peg nut. Try turning it with a small screwdriver. It shouldn't move independently of the pinion obviously. If it has unwound at all the seal will usually leak and the whole area in that tube will be drenched in oil. It should be dry.

I do have some pics. I'll try and pull 'em up later. I think I posted a strip on CCP a board and it may be on Guzzitech too but I don't go there any more so I don't knew if anything I wrote is still allowed.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:44 pm

Yeah, I found this one;
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

but I have seen another somewhere with more info on the nut.

S'pose I'll go and tear my arse end off for the 5th time ............................
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:52 pm

To get the seal holder off you need a special tool, a vice with soft jaws and a bloody great long breaker bar. The pinion bearings are preloaded by the nut and there is a collapsible wavy washer between the outer races. The pinion engagement is set by shim underneat the outer bearing race closest to the pinion head. The seal holder then tightens down and acts as a lock-nut for the outer races to maintain the spacing. It is locked by a circlip with a tongue that slips into one of the special tool peg slots in the seal carrier and the castellated edge of the CARC bridge.

I think it's a prick of an idea and this winter I'm going to solid space one of my spares so I never have to worry about this sort of stupid shit ever again. It's all about assembly time and fuck-all to do with quality and longevity and then the pricks won't sell us stuff like the wavy crush washers so we can mend stuff properly. Fuck them, and the stinking horse they rode in on, and their dog! And it's puppies! Twice!
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:26 pm

OK, diff off.
No oil in swingarm, no evidence of weeping around pinion boot.
My prodding and poking doesn't appear to create any movement. Used bright light and magnifying goggles while manipulating with 2 screwdrivers.

Appears to be tab washer below nut, one tang bent up into slot outside of nut.
This tang is painted green, and lines up with a green mark on shaft just below splines.

Face of nut is heavily rusted, as are threads of nut and shaft. Should I;
a). Lube with penetrating oil to prevent further rust and aid future maintenance, or
b). Leave it alone as the rust is a good form of locktite?


Last edited by ghezzi on Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:11 pm

Sent to Don, then I decided to blow up a few heads on CCP board so here's an instructional.



If you decide to do this there are a few things you'll need.

One of those tools for applying the clamps for CV boots on car axles.

Clamps for same.

Special tool which I can lend you.

Threebond 1211 or similar.

30 Tonne press.

My guess is you have most of that apart from the special tool, which is manufacturable but why bother if you want to borrow mine.

Sequence is basically undo the clamp that holds the top boot to the case. Remove the plate on the front that secures the front boot.

Heat the outside, RH, case of theCARC with a heat gun or butane torch around the bearing. Pry case apart at pry points and then heat some more and lift off RH case.

Support case so you can press on the centre of the crownwheel on the wheel side and push the entire bridge out of the bearing in the LH case.

Remove clamp that holds front boot to the seal holder, remove boot and the plastic ring thing that protects the boot.

Clamp crownwheel in soft jaws in dirty great f*ck-off vice. Bust Choofer Valve with long breaker bar undoing seal carrier after removing 'G' clip. (It helps if you warm the outer edge of the bridge surrounding the seal holder with a butane torch.).

That will give you access to the poxy peg nut. Bend down tab on lock washer and loosen peg nut.

Clean thoroughly and apply small amount of red Loctite to threads, re-install new lockwasher and peg nut and tighten to either where it was before or 50 inch pounds. Bend up lock washer tab.

Install new seal in seal holder.. Reinstall seal holder and tighten up until you fart using FB breaker bar. Check pinion backlash.

Reinstall the front boot and plastic ring and use the CV boot clamp tool and clamp to tighten down the clamp. Cut off excess clamp.

Grease seal lip in LH case and use press to press crownwheel back into case taking care that both top and front boot don't hang up and get damaged.

Apply thin layer of threebond to mating face of case. Invert LH case on press and use press to push RH case down on to LH case over bearing taking care that dowels align etc.

Take CARC out of press and bolt halves back together (8mm into alloy? 22 ft/lbs from memory?)

Secure front boot with plate and shitty self tapping screws, (It doesn't harm to use a bit of threebond around the boot.)

Use long CV boot clamp on top boot, double the clamp around and tighten using tool. Cut off excess clamp.

Re-fit to bike, fill with oil, replace wheel, brake and stuff.

Go out for ride and marvel at your wonderfulness! Very Happy

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:15 pm

ghezzi wrote:
OK, diff off.
No oil in swingarm, no evidence of weeping around pinion boot.
My prodding and poking doesn't appear to create any movement. Used bright light and magnifying goggles while manipulating with 2 screwdrivers.

Appears to be tab washer below nut, one tang bent up into slot outside of nut.
This tang is painted green, and lines up with a green mark on shaft just below splines.

Face of nut is heavily rusted, as are threads of nut and shaft.
Should I a). Lube with penetrating oil to prevent further rust and aid future maintenance,
or b). Leave it alone as rust is a good locktite?

LEAVE

IT

THE

FUCK

ALONE

YOU

NUMPTY!
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:20 pm

OK! jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:21 am

Pete Roper wrote:
To get the seal holder off you need a special tool, a vice with soft jaws and a bloody great long breaker bar. The pinion bearings are preloaded by the nut and there is a collapsible wavy washer between the outer races. The pinion engagement is set by shim underneat the outer bearing race closest to the pinion head. The seal holder then tightens down and acts as a lock-nut for the outer races to maintain the spacing. It is locked by a circlip with a tongue that slips into one of the special tool peg slots in the seal carrier and the castellated edge of the CARC bridge.

I think it's a prick of an idea and this winter I'm going to solid space one of my spares so I never have to worry about this sort of stupid shit ever again. It's all about assembly time and fuck-all to do with quality and longevity and then the pricks won't sell us stuff like the wavy crush washers so we can mend stuff properly. Fuck them, and the stinking horse they rode in on, and their dog! And it's puppies! Twice!

I have a question Pete, I can't figure it out from the drawings below.

Is there some kind of sleeve/spacer between the two pinion bearing inner races?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:28 am

Yup, it's a torque collapsible wavy washer, common in this sort of application, not brilliant but cheap.

The line in that diagram though is pointing to the collar underneath the peg nut and lock washer.

I have a couple in bits at the moment, I'll try and get some pics. I'm off to Wagga tomorrow.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:33 am

I am starting to get the picture now study

Peg nut, collar and remnant of the lock washer?

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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:37 am

Yup, I'll line the whole sorry mess up for you next week if you nag me, (I need nagging otherwise I forget stuff 'Cos I'm old an' shit. OK?) Very Happy

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:40 am

Thanks Pete, it's very educational and interesting to see what's inside the "non-serviceable" part of the CARC study
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:13 am

Mate, it's past your bedtime isn't it? Very Happy ah, yes! We share the insomnia gene? Rolling Eyes Laughing

Pete

PS. For those in the Northern Hemisphere, Singapore is, I believe, two hours ahead of us and it's just after 9.00PM here. Poor bastard must be exhausted! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:16 am

Jude has just slapped me. He's two hours BEHIND! Still close to bed-time in my book! Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:21 am

Pete, I am 3 hours behind you, it's 6:20pm here.

It goes like kiwi, ozzy, asia, india, middle east, europe and america

I am down with a bad flu now, my sleeping timing screwed up further by the flu medicine and antibiotic, you will probably see me in the middle of the night too Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:40 am

Always happy to converse my friend! cheers

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:36 am

A few questions..

1.Is this something in your opinion that will happen to them all at some point, especially higher mileages?

2. Should we be doing a preventative inspection or do we have enough time to pull it if it starts making noise before it grenades?

3. How much time do you reckon it takes to pull it down and service?

4. Is there a way to stake that nut so that it can't move in the future?

Thanks as always.
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:03 am

Doug, I wrote a little schpeil on what is involved in taking the CARC apart and posted it up on WG. I think that next week, if the parts for the dead Stelvio don't arrive, I'll pull another one of my spares and do a photo essay.

FWIW here's a link to my msg over there, my description is somewhere down the bottom of the first page. Taking a CARC apart is not tremendously difficult but it isn't a 'Novice' job or one for the faint hearted and it really does require a 30 ton press to avoid damaging expensive shit.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ooo-Errr Missus, that's a horrid noise!   Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:53 pm

Ahhh. Thanks for the link. I rarely go on WG. From what I read, you stated that you've only seen this happen twice in ten years. That's a pretty low percentage in my book. I think I'll just keep an ear tuned for any strange noises coming from back there and not lose any sleep over it.


Thanks Pete!
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