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 CARC Oil 85W140

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avgpetro
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:00 am

For the engine oil, having Guzzi's specs as a refernce point, is realy easy... The Agip racing 10w60 is API SL Homologated. So, any automotive SL or SM or even better SN will be fine.

The "special" motorbike oils (like the "i-ride" 10w60) are actualy not good for GRiSO, as they usualy are API SG - and they're more expencive.
API SG is used at bikes that the engine oil goes also to the clutch, to avoid clutch slipage.

Just done a test, searched for cheap 10w60, found the "Liqui Moly Synthoil Race Tech GTI" thats SL, and even better, the "Castrol Edge Titanium FST" thats SN.
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tjo
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:43 pm

Pete
sorry for bothering again. How do they signal 'heat resistance before it degrades' on an oil bottle? I guess synthtic ones are better in general in this regard (too).
Cheers and promise no more questions Smile
Tom

Pete Roper wrote:
The viscosity is less important than its heat resistance before it degrades.

Happy Christmas. Fuck oil threads.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:51 pm

Yes, full ester oils have a far higher resistance to heat degradation. The irony is that overall the 8V is massively over cooled. Within the engine though, in the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and under the crowns of the pistons, the oil can be momentarily flash heated to extreme temperatures that will cause less resistant oils to degrade rapidly and form deposits.
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GNORTS
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:52 pm

Pete Roper wrote:

Happy Christmas. Fuck oil threads.

My sentiments exactly!  Best wishes to you, Pete.
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tjo
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:37 pm

Thanks Pete.
However gear box and mostly cardan shoudn't have any kind of flash heat problems I guess.

Interestingly the recommended transmission oils by Guzzi are not synthetic.
I still wonder why Guzzi recommends two different viscosity oils for gear box and cardan (85W90 & 80W90).
Just because they have nothing better to do or their approach is just too scientific?
Anyway I guess you can't harm much if you put a synthetic 85W90 into the gearbox and synthetic 80W90 in the final drive. This way you stick to the viscosity Guzzi recommends but add the benefits of synthetic oils.
I guess here we can conclude Cool

Pete Roper wrote:
Yes, full ester oils have a far higher resistance to heat degradation. The irony is that overall the 8V is massively over cooled. Within the engine though, in the galleries around the exhaust valve seats and under the crowns of the pistons, the oil can be momentarily flash heated to extreme temperatures that will cause less resistant oils to degrade rapidly and form deposits.
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avgpetro
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:12 am

tjo wrote:

How do they signal 'heat resistance before it degrades' on an oil bottle? I guess synthtic ones are better in general in this regard (too).

You asked Pete, still…. The answer is “they don’t”. The only indication is the “flash point” in the datasheet.

Example : “Total Quartz racing SN 10W10” flashpoint is at 250C (for reference: Eni Racing 4T is at 225C).

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On the bottle, the only thing that you can look for, is the API classification, API SN deals with deposits and some other things, like ethanol that is used in fuels…
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I think that ALL 10w60 are synthetic – have not seen one that is not.
For 10W60, today, for MY bike, I would go for Shell “Helix Ultra Racing”, good specs, nice price – good value. Next month this can change, something else may have even better value…



tjo wrote:

I still wonder why Guzzi recommends two different viscosity oils for gear box and cardan (85W90 & 80W90).



Hmmmm….. grow the thread bigger?

Why not?




MY understanding is that the difference is NOT ONLY the viscosity. They are different types.

Rotra MP is made “for hypoid gears operating under severe conditions”

Rotra MP/S is made “for limited-slip differentials and associated hypoid gears subject to high dynamic loads at high sliding speeds between gear teeth and at high temperature ……. where manufacturers suggest lubricants having antistick-slip properties”

Those are mentioned at the first paragraph of their datasheets:
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For ME, trying to find an alternative to Guzzis recommendations for gearbox and carc oils, is way too complicated, and it may be risky… It does not worth the effort, not for ME over half a liter of oil…


Tom, you live in London?
Maybe you’re less than 30 min away from the shop that sells
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tjo
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:44 am

Petro

thanks a lot for all the additional info. I am still slightly inclined to go for synthetic oils though.

And to add to the confusion (sorry) I checked on the ENI (Agip) lubricant advisor website what oils they officially recommand for Moto Guzzi GRiSO 1100:

shaft: eni Rotra bike synth 75W-90 or eni Rotra bike MP 80W-90
(here you are; there is a synthetic recommandation finally

gear box: eni Rotra bike MP 80W-90
(I don't understand, why not the 85W90???)

Here is the link:
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yes Petro I live in London but couldn't find any offline contact details to motoworlduk.co.uk on their website. I can buy online I guess.

Cheers
Tom
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avgpetro
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:50 am

tjo wrote:

…. the ENI (Agip) lubricant advisor website what oils they officially recommand for Moto Guzzi GRiSO 1100:
…..
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….

Looks to me that this is an example of “what the salesman wants to sell”.
Looking at their datasheets, the obvious difference is while the MP states that’s made especially for hypoid gears, “under sever conditions” and “dynamic loads” - there is no mention for this at synths datasheet. Is synth better, same, or worse for the CARC?
Similar, for the gearbox, on Guzzi recommended MP/S datasheet mentions “limited slip” and “antistick-slip properties”, no mention for those on MP datasheet. Is MP better, same or worse for the gearbox?

I don’t know the answer to those 2 questions, those stuff are too complex – over half a liter of oil – so, for me, the actual question is “should I trust ENI or Guzzi?”

The hilarious thing on ENIs advisor webpage, is what they recommend for the engine.
The “i-Ride PG 10W-60” (motorcycle oil) is API-SG, no way to be better for GRiSO, than their own “Racing 10W-60” (car oil) recommended by Guzzi, that’s API-SL.
We don’t need to be stuck to SG like most bikes, GRiSO won’t face clutch slippage due to the oil, neither we need the extra additives that motorcycle oils have, to function for both, engine and gearbox, lubricants…

tjo wrote:
…couldn't find any offline contact details to motoworlduk.co.uk….
they have under the “tems & conds” shortcut at the bottom of their webpage
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tjo
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:04 am

Makes sense what you say Pedro.
However some people would say that those describing notions - “under sever conditions” and “dynamic loads” etc. - are 'salesmane' talk too...
I now start to understand where the idea of using the 85W140 instead of the 85W90 might come from:
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In this ENI Piaggio Group pdf they only talk about the ROTRA GEAR 85W140 and state that it is specifically made for Moto Guzzi Final drives. It just forgets to mention that it is for some specific Moto Guzzi models (we know: the small engine models).

I still tend to doubt that such a mega-international oil-company would develop a specific oil for such niche brand as Moto Guzzi selling less than 10.000 bikes a year. I tend to think it's just a marketing stuff. Anyway, as you say, sticking to what Guzzi recommends should not harm.
Using another quality brand with similar caracteristics should also be fine. These are pretty simple mechanics.
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PostSubject: Re: CARC Oil 85W140   Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:33 am

Hahha, just read Pete Roper's comments on the same thread in the wildguzzi forum.
I should really start stopping - oups, what a combination of words - reading and commenting on this and do something that has got more sense (riding is not advisable in this weather).

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Pete Roper in the above mentioned link:

Oh Jesus! What's the bloody point?

Why in heaven's name would a Guzzi gearbox need any special oil more than any other one? It's all wheels on sticks turning each other around. No magic, nothing special. Why would you need to have an oil suitable for bloody wet clutches in a machine with a dry clutch? what do people think happens that is so special in a rudimentary gearbox that it needs some weird sort of 'White Man's Ju-Ju' to prevennt it from wearing out? How many people actually ride their bikes enough miles to wear anything out? Most folks seem to turn 'em over before they reach 50,000 miles!

Theere are numerous reasons why oil furmulations are constantly upgraded. New additives may come on the market that will improve the oil's ability to protect over longer periods of time and engine oils because of their need to not intefere with or damage catalytic convertes may now have fewer of certain additives in but this idea that using a slightly different viscosity of oil is going to be a matter of life or death for a component is, quite frankly, absurd.

Oil is cheap insurance. Change it often. Don't worry too much about it fitting the *exact* spec, especially in a gearbox. Now go for a ride and stop bloody obsessing. Any oil you get for a gearbox nowadays will be heaps better than anything available 20 years ago. Pour it in and forget about it unless it comes out where it shouldn't or fills up with silver bits. Neaither of which will have anything to do with the oil!

etc.
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