12425 - Established June, 2013 - all GRiSO, all the time...
 
HomeFAQRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 Instable idle and water intrusion

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Instable idle and water intrusion   Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:56 pm

Today again sunny weather and I did another 150 km to accumulate kilometers for my running-in program.
The mileage on the ODO shows 700 km now and I increased the revs to 5000.
The friction of the engine is now much less and the average fuel consumption comes down permanently
Oct. 2016: 7,9 L/100km
Mar. 2017: 6,7 L/100km
Today: 5,7 L/100km
Looks good, but still too much friction.
In parallel  to the engine speed, I start also to increase engine load now step-wise.
The piston rings need now higher gas pressure on their back to smoothen their edges at higher pre-tension on the cylinder-liner.

Looks good, but the last days, when travelling, I recognized 2 issues:

First issue:
Droplets of condense-water inside the display when the vehicle is standing in the sun. Seems, that humidity was already in or came in over wintertime. Up to know, the GRiSO hasn't seen rain.
I heard about this problem but I thought, that Guzzi has solved this problem by drilling a larger hole into the rubber plug.
On the other hand side, the display is sealed so good, that the water doesn't disappear.
I don't want to open the display, as the GRiSO is still under warranty.

My question to the Ghetto:
has anybody had this issue too?
How accommodating is Guzzi with issue during the warranty period, I mean exchanging the display?
Was there any problem solving action done by Guzzi or will the new display play the game again?

Second issue:

Over the past three days the GRiSO was running at a idle speed of 2000 rpm. I  checked the throttle positions - both throttles were closed completely. I checked the cables - everything smooth, no blocking. After ECU reset (engine re-start) the problem was done, the idle speed stable at 1000 rpm. However, this phenomenon occured a couple of times and dissapeared after engine stop/re-start.
I Czech Republic yesterday the engine stopped a couple of times during idling at a crossing.

My questions to to Ghetto:
Is the GRiSO equipped with an idle air valve (stepper motor) to control the by-pass air flow at the throttle blade? Looks for me as the air flow was too high for idle.
Has anyone had the same problem and what was the problem solving?

Your comments are appreciated very much!
PS: my experience with Guzzi is starting soon...
... but I love my GRiSO over all!

Kind regards,
Ralf
Back to top Go down
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4807
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:42 pm

Ralf, first thing is the dash *might* be replaced but it might not. The factory says some misting is 'Acceptable'. I think that's BS but it's not my call.

With your running problems it was probably never pre-delivered properly. The shop most likely just flung the battery on and a few litres of fuel and pushed it out the door.

First make sure the oil level is no more than half way between the 'Add' and 'Full' marks,then check your valve clearances and set them to 0.1 mm in late and 0.15 exhaust. After this balance the throttle bodies and re-set the TPS and clear the trims. If it is still misbehaving after this then you have to dig further.

Pete

PS? You're being too gentle with it as well. Work it harder or the rings won't bed in.
Back to top Go down
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:58 am

Hi Pete,

thank's a lot for your very helpful comments, which I appreciate very much!

Regarding the higher idle speed, I will wait for the first service @ 1500 km, which will be soon (I did 550 km this weekend).
It's not a real problem, as it occurs quite seldom. If I remember right, typically it was after a steep downhill passage with zero load.
Normally idle stays @ 1000 rpm.

Regarding valve clearance:

Currently, I am not so familiar with the Guzzi engine noise. However, I hear the typical clicking at larger clearances. Manufacturers install normally a larger clearance, as the gap will be reduced during the running-in period automatically.

Regarding your post-scriptum:

This morning I have had a technical meeting with one of our piston suppliers for powersports vehicles and I discussed this issue with the chief engineer of this company.
He agreed fully to my personal running-in procedure (and I am riding bikes for 42 years now):

0 - 250 km: max. 3000 rpm @ low loads. The piston rings shouldn't blow-up by gas pressure in order to enable a smooth abrasion of the ring edges without high pretension
If you go with high load/speed at this mileage, you will get the impacts of the edges as grooves in the cylinder liner.
250 - 500 km: max. 5000 rpm @ medium loads
500 - 1000 km: max. 6000 rpm @ medium loads with short passages of higher load
1000 - 1500 km: continuously further increase of speed and load

This running-in procedure enables for all parts a smooth abrasion.
In terms of power, you will see more a positive as negative impact, as the pairing between piston and liner will be done perfect. This "human" procedure has no impact on the pretension of the piston rings.
And the oil consumption is only impacted by the oil wiper ring, which is down streams of the piston rings and doesn't get pressure from the combustion chamber (blocked by the piston rings).
The sealing of this piston ring is only done by the pretension of this ring and, as mentioned, not by the gas pressure.

Pete, what is your experience regarding running-in vs. oil consumption?
However, I am always open to new inputs and ideas.

Best regards,
Ralf
Back to top Go down
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4807
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:23 am

Does your local supplier know anything about the specific application?

I take it you told him it was running a plain top ring with a wear chamfer? A second ring that is a torsional taper-face semi scraper and a four part twin rail symmetrical oil control ring running in a Nicasil bore?

The rest of the bearings in your engine apart from those in the camboxes and the mains and big ends are rolling element and require lubrication only for cooling, in fact at least one is a 2RS bearing that requires no external lubrication at all.

Plain bearings either work or they don't. There is no 'Run In' period because in theory the bearing faces will never touch.

With this engine, or any other modern automotive engine, you are not looking at the machining and fit technology of the 1960's. Nor are you looking at primitive materials for the components. In the same way that the old arguments about 'Open up the airbox and stick a loud exhaust on because that will give you more power!' No longer apply to tuning the old argument that you need to be really gentle and treat a new engine with kid gloves are also obsolete!

Ride it 'Normally' and don't lug it, don't thrash it, and don't be afraid of loading it up for brief periods or taking it up to the redline occasionally. Before it leaves the factory your bike will of been bounced off the rev limiter for at least twenty or more seconds on rollers to make sure nothing is going to pop out the first time you do it.

Look, do as you please but I'm glad your bloke isn't building my Pistons or applying his knowledge to my bikes.

Pete
Back to top Go down
beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4815
Join date : 2013-09-30

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:49 am

I ran my GRiSO in by riding up a mountain in 6th gear.

Not like a mountain in Austria. I think you'd call our mountains "hills".


Very Happy
Back to top Go down
https://www.griso.org
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:03 am

@ Pete:

Discussing this topic in our company internally results also in controversy answers.
For sure, the run-in of engines 30-40 yrs. ago is completely different.
For sure materials, coating, dimensions (esp. piston) are different compared to previous decades.
For sure, the engine will run a hot test at the end-of-line test rig reaching shortly WOT.

I think this discussions are a little philosophic and everybody has his own picture of it.
However, thank's a lot for your comments.

@ Beetle:

I have never been to your country and have no clou about the altitude there.
Typical in Austria valleys are on an altitude between 200m (east) and 800m (west).
Pass tours in Austria are able up to an altitude of 2700m.

A typical pass inclination will be 10-15% in exposed areas 20-30%.

Some-when, I will go to Australia and spend my vacation there.

Kind regards to you all,
Ralf
Back to top Go down
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:22 am

Example of "Zirlerberg" close to Innsbruck/Tyrol (average inclination: 16%, max 25%)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


But also this can happen:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



Life is hard and could be short in the alpine region!

Take care,
Ralf
Back to top Go down
Papa Lazarou
Sfregiato
Sfregiato
avatar

Posts : 421
Join date : 2014-10-07
Age : 63

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:06 am

My GRiSO has just started to develop quite big water droplets inside the speedo. I hear it's a common problem.
Back to top Go down
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:04 am

Yes Papa L.,

It started after winter brake in my garage, when I ride first time to my company and let the GRiSO stand in the sun. Temp was up to 24 C and when I went home in the evening, droplet(s) on the glass of the dashboard.

190 km - droplet @ 1000 rpm:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


@ 280 km - wet in the right lower corner:


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


The drops will disappear, when the temp drops over night, but are back on the next day.
there is humidity inside and the box is sealed.

The local Guzzi dealer told me, that it's a well known problem.
If you remove the dashboard, there will be somewhere a rubber plug, which seals the box.
Guzzi recommendation: removal of the rubber plug, then the box is able to ventilate.

Makes sense, but on my glas the drops have left traces and will not remove any more.
I did not follow this recommendation, as the bike is under warranty and the complete dashboard will be exchanged (hopefully - I have no experience how accomodating Guzzi handels such issues).

But the water was in at least from October/16 till now and humidity and electronics are like water and fire!

Papa L, if your bike is out of warranty, I would open the plug in your case asap.
Maybe blowing with a hair dryer carefully to the glass to ensure that the droplets disappear completely.

Good luck,
Ralf
Back to top Go down
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:34 am

I was thinking today over the other issue with the higher idle speed.
And I found a plausible explanation for myself.

As I mentioned, I was going down over a long and quite steep road from a hill (you may name it mountain) in coasting mode and let the engine brake work for me.

The GRiSO has a DLA which controls the bypass air flow around the closed throttle by an electronic stepper motor. The DLA's main function is the compensation of air density at different altitudes.

The sensing of altitude is done by a MAP sensor inside the manifold, which is a cheaper solution as the usage of a MAP plus an additional ambient pressure sensor.

The problem is just, that the MAP inside the manifold is only able to measure the outside air pressure, when the throttle is open (P outside=P inside).

Thus, under my riding conditions, i did not open the throttle over a while, resulting, that the MAP was not able to measure the outside ambient pressure. As a result the last stored pressure value was from a higher altitude (lower density).

Coming down the road this lower pressure was still stored in the ECU resulting in a too high air bypass flow.

After engine stop and restart the stepper moved back into a default position.

Conclusion out of this:
Going down a steep hill with a GRiSO needs some WOT passages on the way down!

Maybe you will not see this problem in Australia.

After all the theory I will drink a good cool Austrian beer now!

Cheers,
Ralf
Back to top Go down
beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4815
Join date : 2013-09-30

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:24 pm

The GRiSO does not have a MAP. The ECU only uses ambient air pressure measured from the dash. There is no DLA. The ECU sets the idle stepper position based on engine temperature.



silent
Back to top Go down
https://www.griso.org
beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4815
Join date : 2013-09-30

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:50 pm

Let me explain further.

The CARC series has neither a MAP or MAF sensor. The throttle body flow was measured on a flow bench. A lookup table exists in the map to allow the ECU to apply a correction factor based on TPS v RPM. Therefore, if the throttle bodies are not balanced correctly, the engine will run like a three legged goat with a broom handle up the chuff.

Thusly, if the TB's aren't balanced, the stepper position will not be accurate, as its position relies on the aforementioned lookup table plus engine temperature.


Dollars to donuts both your air bleed screws are open. At the very least, the TB's aren't balanced.



Suspect
Back to top Go down
https://www.griso.org
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4807
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:40 pm

Yup, check the tune, really. It sustain sounds like lousy set-up. You haven't moved the throttle stop screw have you?

Pete
Back to top Go down
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:15 am

Thank's Beetle and Pete for your comments.

I did not touch the throttle stop screw.
The strange thing for me is just, that the idle speed is normally very stable at 1000 rpm.

Id just happened under overrun mode, when the throttle was closed and I went down for some hundred meters. As I mentioned, after engine restart, the idle speed was directly on the correct value again.

Thus, if it is a imbalance of the TB's, or the TB's end positions are not learned correctly by the ECU, the problem must occur permanently.

For me it feels strongly to a typical DLA issue.

@ Beetle:
You mentioned, that the ECU inputs don't have a MAP and MAF sensor.
MEF is clear: It's an alpha/n system.
For the pressure sensor it needs either a manifold pressure sensor or a ambient pressure sensor to enable a correct altitude compensation. The ECU needs a pressure signal as input to control the DLA as output.



Back to top Go down
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4807
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:30 am

If it's idling at 1000 it's idling too low. Target idle is 1200+/-50. That indicates something isn't right. I'll give you odds of 50 to 1 the tune is wrong.

Just grab a 5mm Allen key and see if both the air bleeds are open. That's usually a pretty good sign that it's been set up, (Or not.) by idiots.

As Mark has said, the APS is in the dash and is one of the reasons I'm ambivalent about sealing the dash too thoroughly.

Pete
Back to top Go down
beetle
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4815
Join date : 2013-09-30

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:59 am

Air pressure sensor is in the dash. The only sensor in the fuel/air intake is intake air temperature. There is a correction table for Pressure-Air-Temperature in the software. As I previously mentioned, the MAF is calculated. If the MAF is wrong, i.e. throttle bodies not balanced, an air leak (intake boot or air bleed screws), etc, then the ECU cannot correctly position the stepper. The stepper may not be faulty.



silent
Back to top Go down
https://www.griso.org
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:20 am

Thank's Beetle you are right.
The GRiSO has a temp sensor for the intake air in the air box, but no air presser sensor at all.

Thus, the software is really getting the info about higher altitude via a correction map, which may say 1 deg C colder corresponds to 100 m higher altitude.

I went up the mountain on the sunny side (about 22 C) and went down on the other side in the shadow of a forest (about 16 deg).

Based on my assumption before the ECU detects 6 deg C colder assuming 600 m higher, whilst a was going down by some hundred meters.

Beetle - this could fit!
Thank's a lot
Back to top Go down
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4807
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:00 am

Jesus! Just tune the bloody thing properly! While we in Oz may not be blessed with huge mountains there are a host of members here from the Pacific North West and BC in Canada who will ride from sea level into the Cascades and Canadian Rockies and back on a day ride and their bikes all work just fine!

Your bike needs a tune up, (And more thrashing!), do that, then start looking for peculiar answers to simple questions!

Pete
Back to top Go down
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4807
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:56 am

Il GRiSO wrote:
Thank's Beetle you are right.
The GRiSO has a temp sensor for the intake air in the air box, but no air presser sensor at all.

It's in the bloody dashboard!

Look, the system is so simple even a beer drinking antipodean dullard like myself can understand it! You're trying to make something simple into something difficult and it's not! Really!
Back to top Go down
Il Griso
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2017-01-19
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:30 am

I will close the discussion now.
Austrians normally are used to discuss things based on dta and facts, not on emotions.

However, thank's for your inputs,
Ralf
Back to top Go down
Pete Roper
GRiSO
GRiSO
avatar

Posts : 4807
Join date : 2013-05-29
Age : 60

PostSubject: Re: Instable idle and water intrusion   Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:03 pm

Ah, that old argument. Rolling Eyes

Look, what you do is up to you. I just wouldn't want anybody else listening to what you are saying and thinking it is correct because it could get them into a whole world of pain.

All the best with your bike, I hope it gets tuned properly or you're going to end up very disappointed.

Pete
Back to top Go down
 
Instable idle and water intrusion
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
GRiSO ghetto :: The Ghetto :: GRiSO Experience-
Jump to: