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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Oil question    Fri May 12, 2017 3:12 pm

Don't want to start a heated oil thread , just want to ask questions as a learner[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Only difference between the two, in small text ; API SG on one & API SL on the other.

My manual states API SG is preferred.
Is the SL an improvement or a different blend of minerals ?

And is there anything to stop me using the SL ?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Fri May 12, 2017 3:41 pm

The SG probably has a slightly higher level of ZDDP, (Zinc and Phosphorous, an anti scuffing agent.). It is a widely held belief that the lack of this, (which was removed because of its damaging effects to catalytic converters in older engines that burn oil.) was a contributor or in the eyes of some 'The Cause' of the flat tappets failing in the 8V motors.

Unfortunately this is bollocks and in fact higher levels of ZDDP can, in some circumstances, be counter beneficial when used in a Diamond Like Carbon, (DLC) interface and it also wouldn't explain why the earlier chilled cast iron tappets weren't protected by its use.

The oil I have used for the last twenty years and the synthetic version I use in all bikes nowadays does have unusually high levels of ZDDP, it did nothing to protect the tappets because lubrication wasn't a factor in the failure. The reason I never fretted about it was by the time I'd isolated what I thought was the cause I'd already discounted the ZDDP hypothesis and anyway it's not as if tribology has stood still in the last four decades any more than any other science or technology and I'm sure there are other equally good or better anti scuff additives now available. The argument that you *Need* ZDDP in oil is similar to the ones used by people to justify their poorly thought out and obsolete 'Tuning' methods of "Open it up and add more fuel!" Which in the case of the 8V Guzzi engine is spectacularly useless!

If your bike is a roller model, (And if it isn't you have other things to worry about other than oil!) it won't make a ha'porth of difference anyway as the scuff factors with the rollers are much lower than with a flat tappet. The most important thing is that the oil you use is a full PAO ester synthetic because although the 8V overall runs stupidly cool there are areas inside it where the oil gets flash heated to very high temperatures that will cook and degrade a mineral oil in pretty short order.

Pete
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Nobleswood
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Fri May 12, 2017 3:50 pm

PAO Ester synthetic I don't know. The bottle says 'top synthetic technology '

Thanks for the SG / SL clarification.

It's going in !
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Fri May 12, 2017 3:57 pm

Either will be just fine.
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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Tue May 16, 2017 12:42 am

Where do you get the Eni oil in the UK?
The only thing close factory spec I could find was Motul 7100.
My nearest UK service agent is now Twiggers. I gave them a call to enquire about 10w60 oil. They stock Motorex Power Synt 4T. There is no mention of it being an ester synthetic on the manufacturer's web site so would have to assume it just a regular synthetic. This was a little disappointing as I was planning to use Twiggers for servicing.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Tue May 16, 2017 2:33 am

Stop worrying.

Anything that says it's a full synthetic 10/60 will be fine. If Twiggers have been using this shit for years chances are it's good enough!

Alternatively I can ship you a grossly overpriced drum of the shit I use, (the shipping will kill you!). My opinion is that the roller motor will run on essentially any old shit as long as it can handle the very high temperatures experienced momentarily within the cooling galleries and under the piston crowns.

Pete
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avgpetro
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Tue May 16, 2017 2:43 am

Some hate oil threads, I like them. If what I think about oils is wrong, I prefer to realise it while reading a post, than whille looking at a worn/damaged component...

So, what I think:
My bike does not need a motorcycle engine oil. The engine oil does not have to withstand the extreme pressures of the gearbox nor has to avoid clutch disk slippage, it does not need to have any special additives for those tasks. Fewer additives means fewer deposits, and (maybe) fewer money. So, my bike needs a good automotive oil.

In 1100s manual Guzzi specifies SG as the minimum, for me it means its the "worst" that can be used, and recomends the Agip Racing 4T, that IS an automotive oil, API SL (SL was the newest API spec at the time).

Later, Piaggio came and changed some things, putt the ecu and throttle from the beverly at v7, the motor from Aprilia mana to a Gillera scooter, made some deal for the i-Ride oils for all the group, killed the carc series...

Until now, I though that any API SL automotive oil would be just fine for my bike, and I was thinking that I could go for an even better lubricant like API SN (eg shell helix ultra racing).

That ZDDP thing made me wonder... to SN, or no to SN?
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Tue May 16, 2017 4:49 am

eeyore wrote:
Where do you get the Eni oil in the UK?
The only thing close factory spec I could find was Motul 7100.
My nearest UK service agent is now Twiggers. I gave them a call to enquire about 10w60 oil. They stock Motorex Power Synt 4T. There is no mention of it being an ester synthetic on the manufacturer's web site so would have to assume it just a regular synthetic. This was a little disappointing as I was planning to use Twiggers for servicing.

Certainly mine has been going to Twiggers for the last three years and after they completed the rollerisation has run well on the Motorex they put in it.
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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Tue May 16, 2017 5:40 am

sidrat wrote:
eeyore wrote:
Where do you get the Eni oil in the UK?
The only thing close factory spec I could find was Motul 7100.
My nearest UK service agent is now Twiggers. I gave them a call to enquire about 10w60 oil. They stock Motorex Power Synt 4T. There is no mention of it being an ester synthetic on the manufacturer's web site so would have to assume it just a regular synthetic. This was a little disappointing as I was planning to use Twiggers for servicing.

Certainly mine has been going to Twiggers for the last three years and after they completed the rollerisation has run well on the Motorex they put in it.


Thanks for this information. I know there is a lot of 'old guff' talked about oil but the one clear recommendation for the 8V motor is the need for ester synthetic oil. However I am now beginning to doubt this as Twiggers have been involved with MG since the beginning of time.
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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Tue May 16, 2017 5:48 am

The oil didn't cause the engine's damage because there was nothing filled in. *muuuaaah
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Tue May 16, 2017 10:16 am

Sorry, used to be my life but don't even start thinking about ZDDP content in your oil cos it's way more complex ......ZDDP comes in many forms (alkyl chain lengths & extent of branching) and if you stick highly active ZDDP in an aggressive engine it will deplete the ZDDP so fast that protection disappears quickly OR you can make it so un-reactive that it doesn't give right protection in first place (so you need blends).....plus all the other additives interact with it....so engine chassis and rig tests are the real indication of wear performance (plus extensive road testing under controlled conditions) which is what the oil specs on the tin tell you it does !

.... just buy as a min what MG recommend in API viscosity grade (10W60) & API/CCMC/other oil specs and buy 'up' to SL etc as they are back compatible in performance. Always buy synthetic; but don't worry about PAO versus Ester cos you are buying to performance spec; always change oil at least at recommended intervals & nothing bad will happen downstairs Very Happy
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MotoMT
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Thu May 18, 2017 5:20 pm

I like oil threads as well ; )

Well as long as they don't get nasty. I think it's interesting that Piaggio is now switching to Castrol for "official" oil. Guess it's time to remove my Eni sticker.

I wouldn't be surprised if Castrol simply rebrands the 10w60 marketed to BMW cars for our bikes...
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Thu May 18, 2017 7:04 pm

Be aware that all vehicle manufacturers continually struggle with the latest Euro 5,6,7 or whatever emission targets are foisted upon them.

1. Hotter running engines generally burn off more hydrocarbons.
2. Thinner oils help with fuel efficiency, = less emissions.
3. As long as motors last longer than the warranty period, most (car) manufacturers are happy.
4. Guzzi's and Harley's are the last 2 air cooled dinosaurs on the planet. (V-Rods are w/c and the full dressers have w/c heads).

My guess is Piaggio got a better (cheaper) deal with Castrol than Agip.

My Ford ute was run in, on a 10w/40 mineral oil for 15,000k. Then at the first oil change the dealer insisted I use a 5w/30 synthetic. His reasoning, the newer engines run tighter tolerances.
I told him to "   koff" and never went back. For the record I did 3 oil changes with the mineral 10w/40 during the first 15k. Then I swapped to Penrite HPR10 Gas, a 10w/50 synthetic oil for my LPG engine. 200,000k in less than 5 years and still going hard.

The only argument the dealer had in the end, was my fuel economy might suffer.
Point being .............. manufacturers always look at profit margins first, then the spin doctors in the marketing department take over. = BULLSHIT!

With regards to my Bella I just listen to Maestro Roper, his mono-focus, VIVA LA GUZZI!
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Fri May 19, 2017 2:46 am

Just to balance that cos there are trade offs (especially for w/c where engine operating temperature has a ceiling).....If the engine is designed around & specifies for your geography/climate 5W30 viscometrics (battery size, oil channel diameters, fuel economy, tolerences, coolant system, etc) then sticking 20W50 may be worse because oil viscosity is always north of design point.

20W50 may not flow fast enough on cold starts so you get damage during warm up
20W50 may not flow at all at -15C and bearings fail
Engine hard to start & eats batteries and starter motors
More stress than designed for everywhere generally in cold (oil control rings, all rings, turbo circuits....)
20W50 flows slower in narrower oil galleries even at normal operating temperature so always slightly less oil feeding high speed components

Big capacity air cooled engines need oils that cover worse scenario uncontrolled high temperature so they design for heavier viscosity in first place (batteries, oil galleries, etc); and a wide multigrade gives you the low temperature coverage too.

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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Fri May 19, 2017 4:00 am

Paul, that's a 10w/50 I put in my car now, not 20w/50, the factory specified running in oil was a 10w/40. Aussie 6 banger engine that's been around for half a century in a hot climate, will never see temps below zero in QLD.

Bella runs 10w/60 full syn.
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Oil question    Fri May 19, 2017 4:58 am

I was just using different W & S grades to highlight the viscosity effect at low/high temperatures; 10W60 oil is higher viscosity than 10W40 at operating temperature.... and the point is that many engines are designed for pressure drop & behaviour of lower viscosity oils.
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