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 GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:54 pm

As stated before clean the battery terminals and earth point and fling in a higher amperage fuse. An alternative to the MPH kit is just to hot feed the delivery pin on the starter relay with a fused feed, (20A) from the battery positive.

I say those camboxes have NEVER been touched for the reason stated in my previous post. They haven't tuned your bike. If they had both air bleeds wouldn't be open. That being the case they are totally clueless. They've already fucked your bike up and robbed you blind. Why would you take it back to them? As I said earlier it's only a matter of time until in their attempts to make it run better they start fiddling with stuff that will get really expensive when it all goes to shit! Take it to Teo Lamers instead. I know nothing of their service department but they have a good reputation and they've been dealing with Guzzis for decades. The mob you are dealing with currently are obviously a bunch of shit-flinging chimps!

Pete
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:03 pm

I have no intention of bringing it back to them, just mentioning that they offered it. Smile Thanks for clarifying.

I have cleaned the earth point (behind the starter motor cover) and the battery terminals two days ago. The bike starts just fine with a 20amp fuse (aside from the occasional click-no start thing, but the 20amp fuse doesn't blow and it will start when I press the starter button a second time) instead. It's just the 15amp fuses that blow when I try them (usually the first start goes okey, the second start attempt blows the fuse a couple of seconds after pressing the start button). Its driving me crazy as it doesn't feel too safe driving around with a fuse of a higher amp than intended. Will the MPH kit or the hot feed you mention stop the 15 amp fuses from blowing?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:16 pm

Having a 20A fuse in there is perfectly safe. The MPH fix or the hot feed should stop the non-start issue.

Pete
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:32 pm

Hi Tim, the starting issue is a well known Guzzi thing, most of us have done the direct wire fix and collectively there has never been another starting issue.

"Startus Interuptus" is a well documented thread here.

For what it's worth, I've continued with the 15A fuse after the hot wire mod and never had an issue.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:04 am

Hi Tim,

Seems you have had some shite service.

I saw that you have flat tappets and if I read correctly you have a full dealer service history. I was the same and with the support and info from the guys on here I was able to get my bike rollerised with MG providing the parts free of charge. It might be worth you visiting my story on here as it covers this issue. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I also found a MG publication directing all their Dealer to Rollerise any bike which they still had in stock. It seems clear that they decided to "manage" the issue rather than recall the bikes that had already been sold.

Anyway best of luck and hope you get back on the road soon.

Cheers,

Angus.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:33 am

Thank you all so much for the help. Just got my diagnostic cables mailed, as well as the new NGK plugcaps. I'll be spending the rest of today working on the bike, and then I'm done with it and will start riding it again.
Rollerisation I'll postpone to next year. The bike has a fairly low mileage (about 6.000 miles) so I'm assuming I can ride another year (I don't ride daily so by next year it may be somewhere between 8-10.000 miles) without critically damaging the engine. If the bike is otherwise trouble-free until then I'll probably have the tappets re-inspected (at another dealer like TLM, obviously) and do the rollerisation. Or if not I may save myself the possible frustration of hoping the dealer is competent, spending a significant amount of labor money, and hoping its actually done correctly and just sell/trade-in the bike for some reliable BMW with a large and competent dealer-network that won't leave me anxious before every ride whether it will start at all or leave me stranded halfway through my destination. Crying or Very sad

Just out of interest, I found an old video of the bike running idle I made from before the service. The bike sounds completely different from how it sounds now. I'm assuming due to the new map. Since I don't know anyone with a GRiSO, I was wondering if you guys could listen to the 2 video's with the engine sound, and tell me if the new sound is how it is supposed to sound with map 68s. To me it sounds both better (more regular) but also much faster and with a more high pitched 'whine' like a car in reverse gear:

pre-service engine sound:            


post-service engine sound:
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:39 am

For whatever reason your vids won't play for me. There should be no real difference in the way the motor sounds at idle though so my guess would be that it is evidence of the cat-con being destroyed in the pipe. Also remember that your bike isn't tuned even remotely properly so it's borderline amazing that it's running at all.

The 8V, apart from the one, horrible, 'Elephant in the corner' of the flat tappet fiasco is bomb-proof. I can get that you are unhappy about the service you've received but don't blame the bike for that. It's not it's fault that your so called 'Workshop' is run by ignorant fucktards.

Pete
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:41 am

Yes tappets but I also read horror stories about moisture in the dash ruining a 1500€ component. And then there are the minor issues of constant drain on battery draining batteries in under 3 weeks, poor plug caps, microswitches breaking and the starter issue. Just a little fed up atm, but I'm sure riding it without problems for a couple of days will improve my mood  Very Happy

I'm assuming a burned catalytic converter essentially means I need a new exhaust since there doesn't appears to be a separate part for that in the parts manual?


Anyhow, I'll try to find another upload site.

edit, hopefully these work:


Old pre-service idle sound:




New post-service idle sound:

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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:40 am

reliable BMW with a large and competent dealer-network that won't leave me anxious before every ride whether it will start at all or leave me stranded halfway through my destination. Crying or Very sad

???
Back in May 2016 year I purchased a new BMW S1000R Sport.
This was supposed to be the best naked sports / roadster style bike available.
The build quality was disappointing as I had expected better from BMW. It felt very cheap, rattled and buzzed when on the move. The ride was sensational and the performance astonishing but the novelty of speed soon wears thin when there is no real backbone or soul to the ride.
The final nail in the coffin happened after a ride out in the rain resulted in various electrical faults. The bike went back to the dealer in Manchester only to be returned with the wiring loom wrapped in insulation tape - I was told that it was genuine BMW tape! After voicing my dissatisfaction and changing dealer the loom was eventually replaced under warranty.
After 6 month of ownership I changed the S1000 for my GRiSO - the difference in build quality and finish is huge.
Glance through the pages on here and a couple of issues / concerns seem to be apparent.  Cast your eyes over a BMW forum – either they are all a bunch of finicky owners or the brand builds very problematic machines.        
Give your GRiSO a chance and get it rollerised – tomorrow is too late for this.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:21 am

Sorry to hear that eeyore, that must have been a bitter experience. I suppose every brand/type has its own problems. My father always rode a BMW, and it was reliable as hell. That was in the mid eighties though, but I have always been drawn to the brand due to this childhood nostalgia. In fact when I had never heard of the GRiSO, I almost bought a 2011 R1200R. Then I saw the GRiSO and I was sold, but now I'm beginning to regret that decision somewhat. With my luck the BMW would probably have had tons of issues though.
On the other hand I do enjoy working on the bike and learning how to do things, and finding out I do have a certain aptitude at takings apart and getting them back together. For example a year ago I wouldn't have dreamed about taking a 500€ starter engine apart.

Anyway, the diagnostic cables from lonelec had arrived. Unfortunately Fortuna seems to pester me with endless annoyances these days, as the USB connector was somehow heavily damaged. So I spend half an hour getting that in working order first.
Finally I hooked everything up to the bike and things worked smoothly. I made a backup of the current map just in case, and I checked for errors, but there were no stored or active ones. Then I actually started the engine and again checked for errors, but none showed up. I did remove the main fuses a couple of days back. Would that have cleared any logged errors by any chance?

I checked the throttle, and it was set at 5.3 which I believe is slightly too high? If so what effect would that have had? I reset it, and it now shows as 4.8
I also reset the learning parameter. Not sure what else I could do there.
I did notice thanks to guzzidiag that my clutch microswitch is well and truly broken, as it kept showing as being released even when I depressed the clutch. My earlier attempt at gluing the switch back together (it had separated in the middle of the square black 'body' that houses the actual switch) has obviously failed.

I noticed injection was set to 2.000 (milliseconds?), is that supposed to be like that? I'm asking since in the guzzidiag tutorial on this site it showed in the picture as being 1.000

ps. Does anyone happen to know the diameter of the spark plug tool needed to remove the spark plugs? I bought a 21mm socket one today but it doesn't even fit through the shaft to reach the spark-plug.

ps2. I would like to say that I really appreciate all the help that has been given to me in this topic by all of you and the patience with my fumbling and no doubt terrible questions. Specifically to Pete Roper, thank you so much! Thumbs Up
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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:38 pm

You should have a suitable plug spanner in the toolkit under the seat.

My second bike was a '76 BMW R75. Back then it was not the right bike for a 17 year old but I wish it was in my garage now. BMW like many brands appears to have turned their back on the old customers in favour of a new bikers willing to buy on a 24 month PCP and swap as soon the colour schemes change.
Durability and quality becomes almost irrelevant.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:41 pm

eeyore wrote:
You should have a suitable plug spanner in the toolkit under the seat.

Damnit, I completely forgot about the toolkit under the seat Embarassed
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:45 pm

Your TPS reading 5.3 is another indication of not being tuned by your 'dealer'.

The clutch micro is easily replaced. The connector is hidden under the 'wing', near the headstock. It's also only necessary if you want to start the engine while in gear. I've done without one for a couple of years.

Ignore the readings in GuzziDiag tutorial. They're only indicative.



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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:25 pm

The only good news is that the shop hasn't buggered about with the throttle stop screw but as Beetle says the high TPS value is just another indicator they are clueless shitgibbons.

My advice? Buy a handful of decent tools, get a Morgan Carbtune and learn how to tune your bike yourself. You already have Guzzidiag working. If you are willing to learn I can talk you through a basic tune up in about half an hour, you can, (Hopefully.) get your bike up and running again sweetly and start saving the money for the Rollerisation.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:01 pm

When I was a boy, BMW's were the most reliable bike on the planet.
Today, I make my living transporting broken down motorcycles back to the stealerships.
Namely Harley Davidson and BMW's and a few Ducati's. These brands offer 2 years free roadside assistance and they bloody need it.

Harley's have always been a piece of shit, but now BMW's are on equal terms and relative to total sales, I would tow a higher percentage of the German brand.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:06 pm

Also on the subject of parts? Where would you buy a dashboard for €1,500 scratch Teo has them listed for €707 which is less than half your suggested price.

The early dashes were a bit more prone to moisture ingress but the one on my 2008 shitheap has been misting up for nine winters now and hasn't failed yet. Yes it can happen but I think the problem is overstated. Having said that I do live in one of the driest parts of the driest inhabited continent on earth!

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:56 pm

motor-timothy wrote:
Yes tappets but I also read horror stories about moisture in the dash ruining a 1500€ component. And then there are the minor issues of constant drain on battery draining batteries in under 3 weeks, poor plug caps, microswitches breaking and the starter issue. Just a little fed up atm, but I'm sure riding it without problems for a couple of days will improve my mood  Very Happy

I'm assuming a burned catalytic converter essentially means I need a new exhaust since there doesn't appears to be a separate part for that in the parts manual?


Anyhow, I'll try to find another upload site.

edit, hopefully these work:


OK, managed to listen to the vids on my desktop. Top end sounds rattly in both which means the valve clearances are probably too wide so most likely they weren't checked as part of your 820 Euro 'Tune Up' Rolling Eyes .Note also that the idle at the time the vid was taken was higher than before they'd laid their grubby little fingers on it. Was that vid taken before you re-set the TPS? If so the 5.3 degree TPS value would probably explain it as by the time the TPS is open that amount the spark will start advancing. Throw in the unbalanced TB's with both air bleeds open and I'm actually surprised it isn't idling higher.

As I said, all you need is a manometer of some sort, most here use the Morgan Carbtune, its a great tool but there are many other options, a 24mm socket and a ratchet handle to drive it, a small/medium sized flat bladed screwdriver an 8mm ring spanner and a set of feeler gauges. You already have, (I think, as you've had the rocker covers off.) everything else you need to tune the bugger up.

Since its winter and work is slack perhaps Michael and I should make a basic tune up vid and post it up on Urine Tube or whatever its called.

Pete

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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:36 pm

Pete Roper wrote:

My advice? Buy a handful of decent tools, get a Morgan Carbtune and learn how to tune your bike yourself. You already have Guzzidiag working. If you are willing to learn I can talk you through a basic tune up in about half an hour, you can, (Hopefully.) get your bike up and running again sweetly and start saving the money for the Rollerisation.

Pete

That would be absolutely fantastic! Found a carbtune pro 4 for 80€ but they are out of stock till early to mid-july, so once my next salary drops in I'll be buying one of those. I'd love to be able to tune my GRiSO myself.

Just made my first testride of about 60 km after all I've done to the bike. Overall the bike ran fine, not super smooth but no noticeable misfiring or anything strange except for the rattling/ticking from the valves (ofc I insulated the plugcap with electric tape, its a nice test to see if that cap was indeed the issue).
And the bike does start a lot smoother now (despite still blowing the 15amp fuse), so my cleaning of the starter engine wasn't entirely in vain.

Idle is still high, despite resetting the TPS. It is at 1500 after I start, when it warms up it alternates between 1350 and 1500. Definitely higher than pre-service. The previous owner did have the bike overfilled with oil (there was over a liter too much in there, absolutely ridiculous), am I correct in assuming this could have clogged up the throttle bodies a bit? Coupled with the lack of any throttle body balancing and the open air bleed screws and the new map, I think that's more like to be the cause than a suddenly broken stepper motor.

I ordered a pair of NGK SB05E caps, but then I read that these caps are not watertight for the GRiSO unless I buy another type of caps and cannibalize their rubber rings to augment the SB05E caps. Then I also read in a reply by someone that NGK SD05E caps fit the GRiSO perfectly and should be taken instead of the SB05E caps. So now I'm a bit confused which route to take. Also will the SD05E and SB05E caps both fit my current spark plugs with no issues? Or will I need to replace my newly installed spark plugs?
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:18 pm

Have a look at this thread

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It will clear up your confusion about the spark plug caps.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:42 pm

I read that, it's what caused my confusion Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:55 pm

You have read to much:-) The spark plugs are 10mm outside. The caps can be had with a rubber for 14mm SB or 10 mm SD The last character E means it fits spark plugs with a thick endcap, instead of the ones with a thread on it.

SB or SD will both work, only the SB is less watertight for water or coming from bottom. Since top is closed, I don't see very often water there. For now it should be ok, other things to worry about
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:01 pm

Clear, thank you for that. I'll trade the SB's for SD's then Smile I want things to be as watertight as possible with the amount of rain that falls here.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:38 pm

For some reason we can't get the SD's here in Oz. I've been running the SB's for years on both my and customers bikes with zero issues though and I've ridden in some fairly atrocious weather! I wouldn't worry unduly.

Pete

PS. Your high and erratic idle is almost certainly down to the air bleeds and maybe gummed up TB's. Never run the oil higher than half way up between the 'Add' and 'Full' marks on the stick. Guzzis find their own level, they tend to use oil until a point somewhere between halfway and the bottom of the stick and then stop and it varies from bike to bike. My GRiSO stops using it just above the 'Add' mark. Perversely, my Stelvio which has a much higher mileage and greatly abused engine doesn't use a drop and it was full to the top of the stick when I rollerised it, (By mistake, I over filled it!) and it hasn't been treated gently either!
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:51 pm

Good to know. I checked the oil and the dealer had it filled to almost equal (just very slightly below) the full mark. Should I pump out some oil?

Made a 200km highway ride today in constant rain and severe wind, not much fun but a good test. No problems, so I'm optimistic the cylinder failure problem has been solved. Though I noticed the bike runs a bit rough at 4500rpm with the handlebars vibrating more than usual.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:55 pm

cheers Thumbs Up
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