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 GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:02 pm

So are you planning on just riding it as a disappointing, poorly tuned POS or are you going to tune it properly? While you can do the former completing the latter will make it a far more enjoyable experience.

Pete
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:42 am

Pete Roper wrote:
So are you planning on just riding it as a disappointing, poorly tuned POS or are you going to tune it properly? While you can do the former completing the latter will make it a far more enjoyable experience.

Pete

Oh definitely the latter. Just waiting on the tools to arrive. Smile

Edit: just ordered the morgan carbtune pro (the 4 column one just in case I ever buy a 3 cylinder Triumph in the future) directly at the source (carbtune.com) which was significantly cheaper. No idea when it'll get here though.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:23 am

I did it! I replaced the spark plug caps with the NGK ones. Cutting those cables was scary stuff, but everything still works so I assume I did it right. One less headache.

About the high 1500 idle, it has been like this since they replaced the the spark plug cables/caps and installed the new map. It may even have been since the initial service, since I only made 1 ride when it broke down I could have just failed to notice it.
When I picked it up after the breakdown I immediately noticed the high idle and notified the mechanic who had serviced the bike, pointing out the high idle. He told me its nothing to worry about, it was just because the engine was cold and it drops to 1200 when it has warmed up. However while its true that the idle drops after idling for 15 seconds or so, its then a bit erratic and jumps between 1200 and 1500 but mostly remains in the upper regions between 1400 and 1500, and also when riding and in gear with the clutch engaged (for example at traffic light).

Also, does anyone know of a suitable replacement for the clutch microswitch cable (# AP8113998) ? I refuse to pay 91€ for the 'official' cable that's obviously crap or it wouldn't have broken in half after a mere 10.000km
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:10 am

The reason it's idling high as has already been explained is because both of the air bleeds are open and it isn't tuned correctly. Why do you keep going back to these clowns? Do you enjoy having your wallet raped?

Is the clutch switch not repairable? I've never had to replace one or even examined one closely, they don't seem to go wrong very often. Sounds like more abuse by the shaved ape at your shop to me. Switch retails for a slightly cheaper but equally absurd €76 from Teo. $31.98US from AF1. Which equals €27, no, I have no explanation for the weird pricing policy.

Pete
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:58 am

Oh no, you misunderstood. I didn't go back to them, it was just something I recalled from 5 or so weeks back. No they permanently lost me as a customer, which is why I'm trying to learn to do everything myself cheers

Thanks for the AF1 tip, alas they add 35€ shipping but its still a little bit cheaper than the 91€ at TLM. I was hoping there was some supercheap 5€ alternative from Honda Laughing
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:21 pm

I replaced my clutch switch on my Cali 1400 with the manufacturer's direct microswitch with cable. In this case, the switch was a Burgess V4L. Perhaps the GRiSO uses the same switch, see if you can spot a number on the switch, it certainly looks the same.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:53 pm

Unfortunately that looks quite different. But thanks for the suggestion.

On another note, I finally got all (I hope) the tools I need to set up the bike correctly cheers

From what I've understood reading all the guides and posts on tuning the GRiSO, I assume I should check & adjust the valve clearance first? Then after that take out and clean the throttle bodies, and after that balance the throttle bodies with the aid of the carbtune pro & the air intake screws. Is that all I can do, or is there more?
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:28 pm

You'll need the cables and guzzidiag to reset TPS. Should be done before you balance the throttle bodies for vacuum.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:15 pm

Right I finally had 2 days off so rode the bike to a friend with a garage, and spend my two days off tuning/fixing the bike.

Tuesday I set the valve clearances. They were set to between 0.20 and 0.30 (intake) and 0.15-0.25 (exhaust). So much for the dealer checking the valve clearance even though it says so on my bill...Changed them to 0.1 and 0.15 as per Pete Roper's guide.
All in all it took my about 3 hours figuring out what the TDC of the compression stroke was etc. and setting the valve clearance, but now that I know how next time will be a 30 minute job. It started just fine afterwards, with the excessive engine noise reduced (can still hear the valves but not so loud).

Today I prepared for the throttle body balancing by closing the air screws. Then I cleaned the throttle bodies by spraying brake cleaner in the intake under the battery. It didn't like starting after that, but after 2 or 3 stalls all was well. However the right cylinder is suddenly a lot noisier at idle, as if the valves again have too much clearance. Left cylinder doesn't have this sound.

Next the throttle body balancing. Did everything as the guide said. Temperature was a bit iffy as we didn't have a fan so we used an air compressor to cool it. At 60 degrees engine temp and 3500-4000rpm I fiddled with the high speed screw until both bars were roughly equal. By this time the engine temp had risen to about 98 degrees. I did the TPS reset, then let it cool till about 80 degrees then did the idle. Now I wonder if it matters that we did it at 80 degrees? or should that have been done at 60 degrees too?
Anyway the compression at idle was roughly equal even with both air bleed screws closed. However both bars were highly erratic, jumping up and down (not massively but like half a centimeter up and down). I opened one of the air bleed screws slightly, then some more, then some more, but it seemed to make the bars go further apart from eachother, so I almost closed the air bleed screw so its only a little open. By this time the temperature of the engine was again well into the 90's.

Made a 20km testride and the bike runs fine. No popping in the exhaust or other strangeness that could hint at valves being too tight. However, the idle is still very high (1400) despite having the air bleed screws much more closed than before. And there is the noise from the right cylinder at idle (and occasionally it kicks in while riding). I also noticed there is a bit of a rattling noise in neutral that goes away when I press and hold the clutch handle. But since I didn't touch anything clutch related its a bit of a mystery where that suddenly comes from.


I also tried installing the startus interruptus kit from MPH Cycles. I identified the starter relay to be the frontmost one, as that was the only one when removed that prevented the bike from starting. I inserted the kit between the 2 plugs, attached the wire to the positive battery terminal. Finally I'd be rid of the click-no start thing my bike has.
Full of joy I pressed the start button...KLIK-PANG... 15 amp fuse in the startus interruptus kit blown. Okey fine, I just replace it with a 20 amp fuse....KLIK-PANG...20 amp fuse blown...
After trying it another time, again it blew the fuse. As I didn't want to try it with a 30 amp fuse since I don't know if that could damage the bike, I removed the kit and restored the relay. Now it starts (with a 20amp fuse in the fusebox instead of 15amp), but sometimes just clicks 10 times before it starts. Obviously I'm very disappointed as I really hoped this kit would solve the no-start issue. Crying or Very sad  Any suggestions on why the fuse could be blowing?
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:53 pm

That kit was really designed for the earlier CARC bikes with startus interruptus.  The later models use two relays, the "START UP" relay (frontmost one) and the "START UP MAINTENANCE" relay (3rd from the front if yours are in the same order as mine).

Instead, I suggest you look at both these relays and identify a yellow wire connecting them together and branching off to the wiring loom.  Cut the yellow wire that is going to the loom, insulate the loom side cut, and then connect a reasonable sized cable from the yellow wire going to the relays to the battery positive via a 20 amp in-line fuse.

This should fix your problems.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:33 pm

Only one of the air bleed screws should be open. Sometimes neither of them need to be if the TB's match the engine's tune exactly but usually one needs to be open. You cannot adjust the idle speed with the air bleeds, (And I sincerely hope you didn't try and lower it using the throttle stop screw!) the idle speed is hard coded into the ECU programming and can only be adjusted within the map using Tunerpro or the like.

If the top end is rattling it's probably because the tappets are fucked or have you fixed that yet? I can't remember! Anyway if they are no amount of throttle body balancing or valve adjustment is going to make it run properly because the valve timing will be shot to shit.

Spraying brake cleaner into the snorkel isn't going to help anything. Apart from being the wrong tool for the job the stuff will not be able to wash anything as the air filter is in the way. Unless it's been grossly over-filled with oil though the TB's shouldn't be that dirty by 10,000kms, despite what the factory sez.

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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:37 pm

Pete,
Could the right cylinder 'tappet' noise be the same sump gasket problem I had ?
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:51 pm

No I didn't touch the sacred screw, I read all about how its set by the factory and should not ever be messed with.
I think I may not have done the throttle balancing at idle correctly as the engine was too hot and it was getting late so in hindsight I may have I rushed it. That would also explain the rattle at neutral idle that goes away when I press the clutch.
I'll redo that tomorrow just to make sure. I'll also recheck the valves in the right cylinder, perhaps I didn't sufficiently tighten one of the valve nuts. I don't think its the tappets as it sounds more like the valves and only appeared after my 'tuning'.

I didn't spray the brake cleaner in the airfilter snorkel, but directly in the holes below the rubber battery housing. You can actually see the throttle valves through the holes. I know its not ideal, but I didn't have any carb cleaner and I figured its better than nothing and won't do any damage.

By the way just how hot can the engine temperature of the GRiSO safely get?


kiwi dave wrote:
That kit was really designed for the earlier CARC bikes with startus interruptus.  The later models use two relays, the "START UP" relay (frontmost one) and the "START UP MAINTENANCE" relay (3rd from the front if yours are in the same order as mine).

Instead, I suggest you look at both these relays and identify a yellow wire connecting them together and branching off to the wiring loom.  Cut the yellow wire that is going to the loom, insulate the loom side cut, and then connect a reasonable sized cable from the yellow wire going to the relays to the battery positive via a 20 amp in-line fuse.

This should fix your problems.

Hmm, wish mphcycles had mentioned that tiny bit of information when I ordered their kit. I specifically mentioned the brand, type and year of construction of my motorcycle. Would have been nice if they told me their kit doesn't work on my 2009 GRiSO.


Last edited by motor-timothy on Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:01 pm

Nobleswood wrote:
Pete,
Could the right cylinder 'tappet' noise be the same sump gasket problem I had ?

Possibly, but he's not getting any oil pressure warnings.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:11 pm

Don't over tighten the valve lash adjuster nuts, you'll break one very easily if you lean on it like a gorilla.

TB balance is very easy.

Warm motor to above 60*C, (Don't panic about how hot it gets, it can get to 140 before you need to worry about damage but it will make it run a bit raggedy. You should be able, even in comparatively high ambient temps, get it all done and dusted before it gets to 120*C.) with both air bleeds closed. Hold it @ 3,600-4,000 and balance using the bell crank screw. Kill engine with kill switch rather than key and re-set TPS. Re start motor, let it idle and whatever side has the highest manifold depressions? Open the air bleed on that TB until both sides are even. It shouldn't take you much longer than it takes me to type it!

The knock from the gearbox is simply backlash in the gears as the input shaft accelerates and decelerates with the crank. That's why it goes quiet when you pull the clutch in.

Pete
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:10 pm

motor-timothy wrote:
kiwi dave wrote:
That kit was really designed for the earlier CARC bikes with startus interruptus.  The later models use two relays, the "START UP" relay (frontmost one) and the "START UP MAINTENANCE" relay (3rd from the front if yours are in the same order as mine).

Instead, I suggest you look at both these relays and identify a yellow wire connecting them together and branching off to the wiring loom.  Cut the yellow wire that is going to the loom, insulate the loom side cut, and then connect a reasonable sized cable from the yellow wire going to the relays to the battery positive via a 20 amp in-line fuse.

This should fix your problems.

Hmm, wish mphcycles had mentioned that tiny bit of information when I ordered their kit. I specifically mentioned the brand, type and year of construction of my motorcycle. Would have been nice if they told me their kit doesn't work on my 2009 GRiSO.

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm not sure on what they're switching.  If they supply direct power to the yellow wire terminal (terminal 3), then it will supply it to the other relay.

Next time you experience starting problems, try a connecting short piece of wire from the battery positive to the back of fuse F2.  Flick it across after you have hit the start button and heard the click.  If this helps, then indeed you are experiencing startus interruptus.  If not, then you may have some other issue.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:41 pm

I've got one of the MPH kits on my GRiSO. I never had SI, but I installed it as a preventive measure. Works fine. Either you have installed it incorrectly, or you have another issue.


scratch
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:24 pm

[quote="Pete Roper"]
Nobleswood wrote:
Pete,
Could the right cylinder 'tappet' noise be the same sump gasket problem I had ?

Possibly, but he's not getting any oil pressure warnings.[/quote

Nor did I. I was just working through all the possibilities
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:02 am

Nobleswood wrote:
Pete Roper wrote:
Nobleswood wrote:
Pete,
Could the right cylinder 'tappet' noise be the same sump gasket problem I had ?

Possibly, but he's not getting any oil pressure warnings.[/quote

Nor did I. I was just working through all the possibilities

I doubt its the same thing, the sound from my right cylinder sounds more like 'cling-cling-cling' rather than 'tap-tap-tap' and goes away when increasing RPM rather than increasing like in your case.


About the high RPM idle (1400's), since this appeared after the dealer put in a new map, is there any chance it could be a glitch with the map? A tiny bit of corrupted data etc? And since I'm tuning the bike anyway, would one of Beetle's maps be an improvement in ride quality over the current 68s map?



beetle wrote:
I've got one of the MPH kits on my GRiSO. I never had SI, but I installed it as a preventive measure. Works fine. Either you have installed it incorrectly, or you have another issue.


scratch

Well the kit didn't come with any instructions, but there really is only one way to install it right? Pull out the starter relay, put the kit between the relay and the connector it was attached to, and connect the fused red wire from the kit to the positive battery pole. Nothing else right? Or was the fused red wire from the kit supposed to go to the positive terminal on the starter motor?

I suppose I could try fitting a 30 amp fuse, or could that cause damage to the relay if it blows?

Also, could the starter relay be faulty? Would that potentially cause the fuse to blow? It's just so odd that without the mphcycles kit the 20 amp 'b' fuse from the starter circuit doesn't blow, but with the mph kit the new 20amp fuse contained within the kit does blow.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:44 am

If the idle issue is the throttle butterflies getting sticky with oil, spraying brake cleaner in the inlet won't shift it - you need to remove them and clean the old honest mechanical way.

If you want to squirt something into the running engine to clean something then carb cleaner into the idle air inlet tube (upstream of stepper valve, usually just pull the pipe off the air box) can solve sticky steppers which may be cause of idle issues also.

Not sure how you can tell the difference between noise from the valves versus noise from the tappets anyway (or what an unusual 'valve noise' is unless it's completely trashed !); and given the work required to check the valves, I'd re-check your tappet clearances. As Pete says, if you are running ruined flats, they will open up as fast as you adjust them back AND one side going clack/tick/click or any combo has been a classic symptom of too wide clearances (wear or just not adjusted right).
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:51 am

Well I assumed failing tappets would be more of a banging sound than a too wide valve clearance.

Anyhow I sust started the bike up a couple of times and the sound from yesterday from the right cylinder is gone. So my running theory is that perhaps the valve clearances in the right cylinder are despite my best efforts just a little bit wider than they should so when the engine warms up and the clearance gets wider due to that I start hearing them? Or maybe gremlins.
Will find out in a couple of hours when I take the bike for a ride.

On another note, I took apart all the relays, found some corrosion on the poles of the injector relay (big square one which I skipped yesterday) and it was also halfway loose from the connector. I cleaned it and re-connected it more tightly. Then drank some whiskey for courage and put the mphcycles kit back in. It blew the 15 amp fuse as expected, then the 20amp fuse. Then tried a 25amp fuse and it starts fine. No more click-no start so far.

But its still strange that I need to put in a 25amp fuse, where you would expect that the bypass would draw less amps than the normal starter circuit that goes through most of the bike first. So somewhere must be an issue. Ordered a new starter relay and injector relay just to be sure nothing is wrong with those.

ps. Since the starter relay is 30amp, I can assume the 25amp fuse won't be able to cause damage right?
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:39 am

Failing tappets = wearing away top of tappets + wearing noses of the cams. Usually nothing is measurable or audible until the entire tappet surface has been worn away, & from that point every 0.1mm of tappet top wear creates 0.1mm extra tappet clearance - which you could then measure but likely won't hear (especially if your hearing is as bad as mine). Main worry then is the volume of metal 'fines' already thrown around the lubrication circuit wearing pistons rings/bearings/bore/oil pump; as replacing the cam box is the easy bit to fix.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:43 pm

motor-timothy wrote:
But its still strange that I need to put in a 25amp fuse, where you would expect that the bypass would draw less amps than the normal starter circuit that goes through most of the bike first. So somewhere must be an issue. Ordered a new starter relay and injector relay just to be sure nothing is wrong with those.

ps. Since the starter relay is 30amp, I can assume the 25amp fuse won't be able to cause damage right?

You may have a sticking solenoid.  The solenoid will draw over 40 amps for a fraction of a second until it switches to its holding coil.  This short burst of current is usually insufficient to pop the 15A fuse, but if yours is a little slow, it may be a bit more of a fraction.
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:53 pm

So I've been riding it this evening. The good news is all the strange engines noises are gone (or I got used to them) and the bike runs noticeably better than before! Also, after closing the air bleed screw and only opening it a tiny bit, somehow the idle is back to its former value of roughly 1200rpm.

The mphcycles startus interruptus kit is not blowing the 25amp fuse, which is good. What isn't, is that occasionally the bike still only clicks and doesn't start. Damn it, I had all my hopes pinned on this kit to fix that annoying problem Sad Sad
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO 8v problem, one cylinder (randomly?) cuts out   Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:56 pm

As Kiwi Dave says, there may be troubles in the solenoid area. Pull the solenoid and clean it. Solenoids run best when absolutely dry - no lubricant, no grease, no nuttin'  (despite what some "experts" say) - run them dry and clean and it will not  pull excess current like it does now.

A solenoid is an electro-mechanical device and requires cleanliness to function properly.

If you are still getting clicks, you may have a dodgy battery. If this is the case, no amount of kits, or modification, will fix it. Ensure your battery is good, get it tested by an auto electrician.
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