Subject: Low speed running Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:00 pm
Recent owner of a new Black devil, love the bike, Kwaker stays in the garage most of the time, scanned quite a few of the technical articles, thought I knew a lot about engines, engineering in general but some of the items are beyond my knowledge. It appears in the good ole USA someone knows what they are doing perhaps more so than the factory!!!My point is that I have noticed that the bike is slightly rough at low speed /revs, from what I can fathom out this is due to a lean a mixture, and inconsistent settings/programmes for each cylinder? Here in Blighty (England) a company called Twiggers motorcycles sell a magic box that claims to cure this for £90, all you I, k, Brunels out there what's your view on this? be interested to know
Almost certainly it will be some sort of variable resistor that can be inserted in line with one of the sensors. Usually the air temperature sensor, (To convince the ECU that the ambient temp is really cold so that the mixture is artificially enrichened.) or the O2 sensor to convince the ECU that the mixture is leaner than it is and once again get it to add more fuel.
Some people claim big improvements in the running of their bikes. In my experience the only thing that I experienced when I tried a 'Fat Duc' O2 sensor fooler was that my fuel economy was worse and the dash would throw up a 'Service' warning and put the fueling into baseline 'Limp Home' mode. IMHO not worth a pinch of shit and certainly not worth £90! It's a bloody VR! They cost a couple of bux on a good day!
There are also a LOT of very expensive 'Add Ons' like Power Commanders and tuning options like the Rexxer system that rely solely on exhaust gas analysis to alter the mixture. Some are very happy with these but everybody who uses them reports dreadful fuel economy and while I haven't used or interacted with a Rexxer mapped bike the PC equipped bikes I have dealt with have all had a tendency to over fuel, in some cases grossly, with potential engine damage as a result as well as significant wallet lightening.
The other alternative is to download Guzzidiag, purchase a couple of cables from Internet suppliers, ask Beetle nicely and he'll send you a bin file you can upload into your bike that will turn it into a stupidly enjoyable, arm-stretching Torque Monster! It'll also use 10-15% less fuel! If you're happy? All he asks for is a $50AU donation to help defray development costs! Its nice to send some money to the developers of Guzzidiag too.
If you aren't happy learning how to do it yourself? Find someone who is already using the software and get them to do it for you or if you can't find someone, as a last resort, send your ECU to me and I'll flash it for you as I have the tooling to do that on the bench now. The only thing you will need to do afterwards is get the TPS re-set and the CO2 trim adjusted.
Note that Mark's, (Beetle's) option will work optimally on stock bikes or bikes with an aftermarket can with dB killer installed. Read the 'Tuning with Guzzidiag' thread for the good oil and some scare mongering by suppliers of costly alternatives we've found not to work. More recently there has been a bit of discussion in another thread I started, 'New pipe and lip' about the efficacy and suitability of various aftermarket exhausts and the reasons they may work or not.
There are some very clever and dedicated people on this forum, 'Beetle', Pauldaytona, Uzidzit are three that immediately spring to mind. Read and absorb. There is a lot to be learnt from people who actually know what they're talking about. Unfortunately this isn't the case on certain other forums where people are usually trying to flog you something without a lot of knowledge to back it up.
Pete, Thanks for this, as you say there are people on here who seem to really know what there doing, Uzidzit article on suspension was one of those where I thought I'll have to come back to this and try to absorb, but like most time, work, plus building an extension is not something I have a lot of. Again my IT knowledge is poor, my son is better, hopefully I can corner him and attempt the process, anyway really appreciate your reply simply fooling the sensors and making everything richer seems a bit crude and as you say potentially in extreme cases cause excessive engine wear. I amend my thread good ole USA and Oz know what they are doing!!! Regards Rat
The Finebau Forge device made in the U.K. sold at Twiggers is a lambda voltage manipulator that tries to persuade the bikes ecu (brain) to produce a richer mixture in approx. the sub 5000 rpm range. Th lambda sensor would normally try to achieve a 14.7:1 air fuel ratio, the manipulator aims for the richer 13.6:1 region. For someone looking for a plug and play device it may give smoother running and a bit extra torque the only way is to try one and report back on the results. I tried an early version and it would throw up dahboard errors (no harm done) on a regular basis but the product may well have been improved.
Things have moved on with Guzzidiag and map sharing is becoming commonplace negating the need to bolt on extra hardware to improve the fueling, The guys here have a good map for the 8v motor and once you have mastered the use of the software it will bring greater rewards.
I live in the U.K. and can help with map loading if required pm for my details.
Go talk to Dave. He has the means to load up our map and would probably be more than willing to walk you through the use of the software. The thing is this is not rocket science but there are lots of people who will try and convince you it is! Nobody works for nothing but a donation towards development costs and a request not to pass on any info to other profit driven parties hardly seems usurious!
Pete/Dave yes thanks, great that there are those willing to help and have the knowledge, love the Guzzi now, well impressed with the torque between 4 and 6 thousand so and improvement into a torque ridden fire breathing monster sounds good!!! I assume a spare ECU unit would be handy, there is a Race development shop about 1/4 mile away but I think they will only look at pukka race machines, anyway Dave I live in Gloucester and would be very happy to receive your assistance and reimburse any time costs to help with development. For my part I'm thinking of positioning a 1250 bandit at the sisters house in France near Bordeaux so those coming over from ? could be ideal.
I have a couple of 'Spare' ECU's but as Paul says there should be no need for a spare. The blatant dishonesty of some people with a vested interest in maintaining their status as the 'Big I Am' with suggestions that Guzzidiag is like a bomb with a fizzing fuse is laughable.
Not only is it capable of performing all the usual run-of-the-mill 'Adjustments' but if one chooses to one can upload and download maps and for those with enough skill and understanding write their own maps.
I freely admit I don't write the maps, my input is in an advisory and testing role for Mark. Is Mark claiming to be the 'Big I Am'? Certainly not, a more self effacing nutter you're unlikely to meet! But he is very smart and has a knack for it. The bloke who posts as 'Molly' on WG seems to be equally gifted and I'm sure there are many others besides Paul and Beard (?) who have developed Guzzidiag.
The bottom line is that it is simply a new tool. I got scoffed at by some bloke on one of the forums who said we were obviously mere amateurs because we couldn't write a map without building our own xdf files! Sorry? I don't drop forge my own spanners either! It doesn't mean I can't rebuild an engine!
Technology changes. If you want to take advantage of these advances, and they ARE advances, you have to be willing to learn about the technology. If you don't want to? That's fine. I know a host of people who are very, very happy with their 'Points and Carbs' technology and there is nothing wrong with that. If you DO want modern performance and benefits though you can't expect to fix or alter things without learning new skills.
I'm no computer expert, to a degree, at 58 years old, I am? Not scared but maybe intimidated by the technology. I refuse though to retreat into the safety of my prior knowledge. I will continue to try and help others and in return acquire knowledge from them. To do anything else is to declare myself useless! I may be a bit of a dick but I don't think I'm completely useless, yet....
Just to clarify the guy on the Wildguzzi forum called 'molly' is me so thanks for the compliment Pete. No rocket science here either just a bit of time on my hands and a belief there was more in the Guzzi engine (in my case 1200 2v) to be had. The real Genius is Paul and his software guy who brought us Guzzidiag. That opened the door to the ecu's inner workings and at the same time dispelled a few myths pedalled by corporate interests. I was even warned not to mention diy mapping on the GB owners club web site for fear of upsetting Piaggio.
I struggled with all the computer stuff to start with but with a bit of time and effort the rewards have been well worth it. Now map sharing is becoming popular the need to edit the actual maps is not required just the ability to use the reader/writer software and a bit of confidence the bike won't revert to it's component parts in a big heap on the garage floor.
Sorry Dave, as you know I'm on a few boards and my poor, atrophied brain can't play the cross-refference game any more. Personally I think you should also be *asking*, not demanding! for contributions to help cover your costs. Petrol is much more expensive in the UK and mat, time is money.
A bit off topic I know but its threads like this that I have made this the main forum I go to for GRiSO info. Its people with real answers to real issues and no one is saying, pay me this and this little box of tricks will sort you out....... or not.
Thought I had left a reply anyway? Thanks guys Dave phoned same day and is willing to help, great, unfortunately I'm still in the nuclear fallout from a divorce the net result, this bloody house which has been something of a millstone has to be finished, hence no time etc. But as soon as it is then the Guzzi and a restoration project becomes top priority. I have the tools I need, a fridge full of Old Speckled Hen and Lynerd Skynerd on the decks!!! Coming over from Holland going to Ireland welcome to crash here on the way. Thanks again guys
Tis the elixir of the Gods, however strangely a certain dark beer from Catalonia Volt Damm does the trick having placed my fat arse beside sisters pool she said "would you like a dark beer" obviously, 5 small bottles later thought this is very good stuff then noticed 7.2% !!! Cheap as chips in supermarket. Rat