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 Ready to Rollerize!

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GuZeee
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PostSubject: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:19 am

I've got my C kit and factory stand. Bike is on the stand with battery and tank removed. I've got a valve spring compressor and all other required tools (I hope). I'm ready to do the deed! I'll probably start it this weekend but maybe do a a little before then if I can't wait.

I've read up on everything I could find on the process, so I almost feel like I know what I'm doing (sounds dangerous!). Any final words of wisdom from anyone before I start taking things apart?

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:11 pm

Nope, but if you get stuck or confused ask before screwing it up. It is fairly straightforward but can be challenging for a novice.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:02 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
Nope, but if you get stuck or confused ask before screwing it up. It is fairly straightforward but can be challenging for a novice.

Pete

Thanks Pete, I will! Don't have any questions yet, let's see how it goes. It's so great to have the help and support from you and others on this forum!
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:06 pm

My only recommendations would be:
- ACF50/WD40 on bolts (especially exhaust headers if you are pulling head off) 24 hrs before you start
- lots of photos of where stuff is before/during & after you strip it down (especially cam sprocket alignment)
- pull the rubber bung covering flywheel housing; snopake or paint mark flywheel when you think you have found TDC using straw/screwdriver on each cylinder & photo where it is in the window - this is just insurance policy !
- be hyper careful with the cam sprocket pin & the head/cam box alignment spacer thingies else they fall in engine
- remove spanner from crankshaft bolt before starting engine (don't ask)..
- enjoy
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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:19 pm

Watch out with the left cam chain guide. There are people(even some dealers) that break them, and replacing is no fun.
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wardentm
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:35 pm

Good luck with it ....
Hope it all goes well
Have a great day
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:08 pm

pauldaytona wrote:
Watch out with the left cam chain guide. There are people(even some dealers) that break them, and replacing is no fun.

(Looks at sky and whistles cheerfully!) Yeah, I managed to do that with Mark S's bike. Not my finest hour and replacing the tensioner is an engine out job!

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:11 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
pauldaytona wrote:
Watch out with the left cam chain guide. There are people(even some dealers) that break them, and replacing is no fun.

(Looks at sky and whistles cheerfully!) Yeah, I managed to do that with Mark S's bike. Not my finest hour and replacing the tensioner is an engine out job!

Pete

Is the trick to avoid breakage just using small but steady pressure to gradually move the chain guide? Kind of like moving brake pads away from a disc (but less pressure presumably)?
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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:45 pm


Observing from Cross Junction in an awestruck way. cheers

Looking forward to the report of victory.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:56 pm

Off to a good start!

I couldn't wait till the weekend and figured I'd get a start on it this evening. I managed to get the cambox off of the left side, and all went smoothly so far!

I was really worried about releasing the camchain tensioner and holding the guide it in place, what with the warnings of breakage, and Pete's comment in the video that it's the trickiest part. (And Pete probably does five rollerizations before breakfast!) Maybe I just got lucky, but I was able to move the chain guide and lock it in place without trouble. Woohoo!

I was really eager to get the old cambox out and apart this evening so I could take photos of the old flat tappets. Here they are. From what I have seen in other posts, this seems to indicate the wear has begun and I would have had a problem, but it's not so serious as to cause any damage yet. Can I get any expert opinions on this?

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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:31 am

I'm no expert but compared to what I pulled out of mine I'd say you've picked a good time to rollerise as the damage isn't too bad (relatively) and I doubt enough meta flying around to take out bearings or bores etc - Bad ones can have highly worn down concave tappet top surfaces with rough metal surfaces.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:39 am

Agree. Looks fairly typical of DLC-only damage. You should clean the sump regardless.

.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:04 am

beetle wrote:
Agree. Looks fairly typical of DLC-only damage. You should clean the sump regardless.

.

This. It's not hard or expensive so why not?

Pete
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:31 am

good luck, always good to see some garage work in progess
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:39 am

Thanks everyone! I’ll see how it goes this evening, maybe I can finish up with the left side. Taking out the inlet valves to insert the shims should be interesting.

To clean the sump, is it just a matter of draining the oil, removing the sump (big oil pan thing on the bottom where the filter goes), then cleaning it out? I plan to change the oil after this anyway so it seems I might as well.
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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:14 am


I should never chime in on a techie thread, but I thought a flushing the system, i.e., more than merely draining was the better practice.

Ready now to be whacked into my place.  Embarassed

Bill
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:11 am

no whacker intended....my personal opinion is that flushing is a waste of good oil as flushing won't actually shift the metal particles and mayo in the base of the sump; although for the same reason those should never get entrained back into the normal oil flow anyway cos they just sit there.

Best practice would be to remove the sump and physically clean the base of it so the load of mayo from the blowby return pipe and all the tiny metal bits are removed (including stuff that probably came from factory like olives, grapes & pasta ....ohh and initial bed-down of metal bits). This also gives a chance to look at screen filter etc ....Only downside here is one new gasket and nadgering around with lots of bolts but since you have the exhausts etc off it's trivial.

Based on your pics & assuming you have no issues with oil pressure (no problem gasket at next level up) I wouldn't pull the bearing caps off to check them as it's highly unlikely to have whacked them with almost no metal gone. I'd post my pics of sump mayo & bits of metal on ear swab but window10 has gone tits up & MS Picture mngr load has corrupted it all)

After re-build I'd also give it a couple hundred miles and then change the engine oil again just to clear out any minor bits from the bedding in of the new bits....you could call that a flush !
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:03 pm

paulbrice wrote:
no whacker intended....my personal opinion is that flushing is a waste of good oil as flushing won't actually shift the metal particles and mayo in the base of the sump; although for the same reason those should never get entrained back into the normal oil flow anyway cos they just sit there.  

Best practice would be to remove the sump and physically clean the base of it so the load of mayo from the blowby return pipe and all the tiny metal bits are removed (including stuff that probably came from factory like olives, grapes & pasta ....ohh and initial bed-down of metal bits). This also gives a chance to look at screen filter etc ....Only downside here is one new gasket and nadgering around with lots of bolts but since you have the exhausts etc off it's trivial.

Based on your pics & assuming you have no issues with oil pressure (no problem gasket at next level up) I wouldn't pull the bearing caps off to check them as it's highly unlikely to have whacked them with almost no metal gone. I'd post my pics of sump mayo & bits of metal on ear swab but window10 has gone tits up & MS Picture mngr load has corrupted it all)

After re-build I'd also give it a couple hundred miles and then change the engine oil again just to clear out any minor bits from the bedding in of the new bits....you could call that a flush !

Thanks for the advice! I was going to complete the rollerization and then ride it a bit before changing the oil, to drain it while warm. So that would mean I'd have to take the pipes off again, and working on a hot engine doesn't sound fun. I guess I should change the oil and clean the sump cold, while I've got it all apart? What's the usual procedure here -- I always hear you should change your oil with the engine warm, but it occurs to me that oil changes are often done along with other engine work done when stone-cold.

(P.S. that "olives, grapes & pasta" line took me by surprise and elicited a genuine LOL!)
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:15 pm

My opinion coincides with Paul's. Flushing is a joke designed to make people think that Piaggio give a shit. They don't and if they possibly could they would wriggle out of all responsibility.

The reason for draining the oil with a warm engine is basically to help the speed of draining. Doing it cold is fine. Sump removal is very simple and no different really to earlier models that used to have the oil filter internal to the sump. Basically undo the drain plug and condensate return pipe and let the sump drain and then undo the 14 Allen bolts around the outside of the sump and finally the four that live in the bottom of the oil filter 'Pit' in the middle of the sump. These are invisible but if you run your finger around the casting that surrounds the filter you will feel the four recesses for the bolts. Make sure the key or Allen socket you use to access them is a very good fit because if you round one of the heads out the bolt will be a right frontbottom to remove! Once they're out the sump will simply plop off into your hands. The filter can stay in place until the sump is off. That way it won't be all drippy and slippery.

Replacing the sump after cleaning I like to get all of the bolts through the gasket and started in their threads before tightening in a crosshatch pattern and finishing with the four in the 'Pit'. Reconnect the condensate return pipe and tighten the drain plug, (Not too much!) Then the new, pre filled, oil filter can be installed, oil added and you can ride off into the sunset!

Pete
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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:37 pm


Sitting here appropriately whacked ... and educated.  Rolling Eyes

Seriously, "Ancora Imparo!"  study

Thanks, Paul & Pete.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:08 pm

Thanks for the detailed procedure Pete! I will do that for sure. I just ordered the sump gasket, so may have to wait another few days for it to arrive before I can complete the job, but it makes sense to do this all at once.

One more question (you did say to ask *before* I mess something up...): the C kit came with all three head gasket sizes. Can I determine the correct one to use by looking at the existing factory gasket? I did read your comments elsewhere that it's OK to just use the middle one, but if it's possible to use the ideal size I figure I might as well.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:44 pm

The gaskets are essentially incompressible so just measure the one that comes off and choose the new one that matches it. They *may* also be colour coded with a dab of paint on the edge.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:27 pm

OOPS!

OK, I knew things were going too smoothly so far, I had to mess something up. I did something so dumb I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I need some help so I'll swallow my pride and tell all.

I pulled off the head to put in the shims under the valve springs. Removing the valve spring and valve was very easy thanks to my handy dandy spring compressor tool. BUT... somehow when finding the optimum way to place the head on my bench I switched things around and, you guessed it, I removed an exhaust valve by mistake! So I removed a valve stem seal that I shouldn't have, and there are only four new ones supplied in the kit.

I couldn't believe I did that! Embarassed

I used one of the new seals on the exhaust valve before putting it back, and was extra careful removing the next one on the inlet valve, thinking of reusing it.

So my question is: is it OK to reuse a valve stem seal, or do I need to order a new one? It's obviously not the cost that's an issue, just putting off the rest of the job and losing a long weekend to do it while I wait for a new part. The old seal looks OK, but I have no way to judge if it will still seal properly.

Sad Mad No

-ChrisZ (aka GuZeee)
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:11 pm

No, you're asking for trouble. If they leak you'll have a smoking horror.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:33 pm

OK my nearest Guzzi dealer (an hour away) had valve stem seals in stock so I went over and picked up a couple (it was 114 degrees F so I drove there!)

Valves done, head is back on! Rollerization almost complete on the left side. Here are the rollers.

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