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 Ready to Rollerize!

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:51 pm

Squirt a bit of oil over everything before you button it up. I always stick the 'Pads' into the rockers with a liberal smear of assembly lube so nothing's runs dry when you first fire it up.

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:26 pm

Thanks Pete! I put a little grease on the pads during assembly and poured oil on everything once it was together. Left side is all done now! I’ll do the right side on Monday, which should go quicker now that I almost know what I’m doing.

Since I won’t be getting the oil, filter and sump gasket until next week I was thinking of putting it all together using the old exhaust gaskets so I can see how it runs before the long weekend is over, and then get the “beetle map” and flash it. Then when I get the oil and stuff I can pull the pipes again, clean out the sump, and use the new exhaust gaskets. Does that sound like it should be OK, or is it bad to reuse the old exhaust gaskets even for a very short run?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:48 pm

Exhaust gaskets are no big deal, you can usually re-use them a few times. Many people don't even realise they are there!

Unless the right hand side is much worse than the left I wouldn't worry. Ride it a bit and then drop oil and sump and change the filter. It's not going to die in a ditch in seconds simply because it has old oil in.

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:54 pm

OK perfect! You have no idea how great it is to be able to get answers on things like this from an expert like yourself. It makes the whole process fun since it removes anxiety that I am going to screw something up. Can’t wait to get it all done and ride it again!
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:00 pm

Balance the TB's, stick a suitable Beetlemap in it and you'll be amazed!

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:56 pm

Damn, something is seriously wrong with it Sad

I put it all together. Everything seemed to go well. It started right up and idled but with a really loud knocking noise. Like, really loud and sharp, nothing that could be construed as just noisy valve gear. I didn't dare rev it, and shut it right off. I did it one more time so I could record the video/audio for analysis.

Pete, or anyone who might know, do you have an idea what might be wrong?

The only thing that seemed odd to me while doing the procedure is that after I set the right piston to TDC (with valves closed), the camshaft timing pin was not exactly lined up with the bottom breather cover bolt hole as it was on the left side. But I put the cam pin in the “R” hole, so I don’t see how that could make a difference? I don’t see how it could be off — the gear did not slip in the chain as far as I could see.

Here is the video:

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:43 pm

Yup, you've done something wrong. Did you remove the tensioner plunger completely on the RH side? If so are you sure it went back in the right way?

The chain may of slipped a tooth on the idler shaft sprocket. Whichever side it was making the noise you're going to have to go in again. Check the valve clearances before you take it apart. If they are really big on one set of valves you've probably got the timing far enough out to bend a pair of valves.

Double check the timing. If the chain is a tooth or more out it will be obvious. Did you state the crank by hand prior to stating it up?

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:12 pm

Pete is the undisputed 8V Guru here, and I'm just a novice mechanic myself, but I'd like to suggest a couple of things.

1) remove the plugs and turn the engine over by hand from the front crankshaft nut while listening and feeling for any resistance, stop if you do feel or hear something. There is no need to run the engine to confirm something is badly amiss.

2) Did you set the TDC  on the *compression* stroke of each cylinder ?

Cheers,
Terry
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:10 pm

I didn’t take the whole tensioner plunger out, just the bolt. I was still able to remove and replace the timing gear though.

I checked the valve clearances and they are still good. So hopefully no bent valves!?

Replying to Terry:
1) with plugs out I can manually rotate the crank smoothly. Only resistance is I think normal camshaft operation. No weird noises or getting stuck.
2) yes, for both cylinders I set TDC on compression, with all valves closed, same as you would do for adjusting the valves.

I’m not sure how to fix it. Assuming the chain did slip a tooth on the idler shaft sprocket, how do I set the correct timing? And how do I determine which side is the bad one?
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:14 pm

Which side is making the horrible noise?

Look, before starting it again I'd double check the cam timing on both sides.

How long did you run it the first time? It does take a few seconds for the tensioners to pump up after they've bled down. it doesn't sound like tensioner slap though.

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:25 pm

Check the cam timing how? Valves are fully closed and gap is correct when piston is at TDC on compression. On both sides. What else is there to check?

Interesting about time for tensioners to pump up pressure. I didn’t run it long at all the first time, about the same as in the video. Dare I fire it up again and run it for longer?
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:12 pm

Any damage you've done if the cam timing is out will of been done.

How do you check the cam timing? By taking the flinger plates off one at a time, finding TDC compresh on that cylinder and looking at the cam peg locator position.

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:28 pm

On the right side at TDC the cam peg is not aligned with the bottom breather cover screw hole, it is a bit to the left. (I don't know how it could have gotten off like that, it was that way when I first removed the plate.) To fix it, would I slip the gear off the chain and reposition so that at TDC it's aligned with the bottom screw hole?
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:38 pm

It may of skipped a tooth at the idler shaft while the sprocket at the cam was off.

Make sure it's at TDC, unload the tensioner, move it round a tooth in the appropriate direction.

Any chance of some pics?

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:10 am

Pete, is one tooth out enough to cause the valves to hit the piston ?

I recall where a Moto Moda Stelvio  8V roller conversion ran fine but wouldn't rev beyond around 5000 RPM, and it was discovered a cam was one tooth out ?

Cheers,
Terry
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:14 am

Despite its stupid cam timing the 8V doesn't seem to be a one tooth collision motor.

One tooth out, (Not sure which way.) results in hitting a brick wall at 6.5K.

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:09 am

I had same experience of RHS cam slipping a tooth despite all best efforts to keep chain tight (see pics) so it's probably something to do with way chain slacks when you pull the tensioner plunger. I didn't engine so can't comment if that causes noise but all other things being right, it probably does...

BTW I know it's not a necessity but that's also where the mark up of the flywheel TDC point insurance helps


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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:17 am

Here is a pic of the gear; I couldn’t get a direct shot right now since the injector is on at the moment. But you can see the pin is off by more than a single tooth. Fortunately I did make a mark on the crank so I can line it up exactly.

Tonight I’ll try loosening the cam chain tensioner and moving the gear to the correct position



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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:37 am

Yes, it looks 'two teeth off'.....good luck & hopefully nothing hurt
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:15 am

I should have realized that when I was putting the gear on, that was dumb. I always learn from mistakes the first time I do something new, unfortunately I had only one chance to get this right. Sigh.

I am hopeful that nothing was damaged though, since the valve clearances have not changed. This evening I'll try to get it sorted and back together, and give it run.

Thanks so much for the help -- without this forum I think I would still be in the garage, weeping.
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:46 am

Once it is timed correctly re-set the valve clearances.

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:36 pm

I moved the gear in the chain and got it back into place, which was a little tricky but here it sits. Cylinder at TDC compression, crank aligned with original mark. Looks good?

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:08 pm

Yup, looks right this time. Hopefully it hasn't bent a valve. Make sure you pull it through manually first rather than just hitting the button just to be sure.

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:03 pm

IT WORKS!

It sounds a lot better in person than in this video. No weird noises at all. Looks good! Need to get everything together and take it on the road to tell for sure (tomorrow)

Next comes beetle map!

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PostSubject: Re: Ready to Rollerize!   Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:16 pm

OK, couldn't wait for tomorrow. I finished putting everything together and took it for a ride.

Good news: It runs beautifully! Feels better than ever and pulls strong at all RPMs. Sounds great.

Bad news: It's leaking oil Sad Looks like it's weeping from head and base on right cylinder, possibly from base on left. (Nothing from rocker cover.) I torqued it according to the roller upgrade instructions: Pre-torque: 25 Nm or 18ft/lbs, Final torque: 43 Nm or 32 ft/lbs.

EDIT: Not sure exactly where it is leaking from, it could be making its way from somewhere else. I wonder if it's the oil plug on the inside of the cylinders?
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