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 Anyone know what this is?

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Karman
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PostSubject: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:04 am

I developed a very slight oil leak/weep on my left hand cylinder this summer after being rollerised. At first I thought it was coming from the caming timing cover breather, as the once use only cinch clip had been re-used by the cheapskates at the Rocket Centre. replaced that and the leak persisted. I then wondered about a failed O ring on the rocker cover, and meticulously cleaned everything off and then ran the engine with the coveres off to see if I could spot where the oil was coming from. Nothing from the expect areas, but still the oil came, manifesting on the 2nd fin above the cyclinder head joint. I got my head right down and shone a torch up and discovered there is some sort of brass fitting in the head, which looks like the source - see photo

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Does anybody know what this is? It doesn't appear on the exploded view of the head.

Andy
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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:06 am

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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:14 am

I'm having no success with Photobucket.....will try and post again later.
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:23 am

Mostly people get leak from oil banjo having missing copper crush washer or not tightened enough after rollerising.... here are couple pics that show where it is ...best to put up your own though

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:22 am

Photo bucket won't work as they have become a 'Pay some huge amount to access your pictures' service. Lot of stuff lost there.

I'm guessing that what you are talking about is the plug for one of the cooling galleries around the exhaust valves in the head. These are drillings plugged by what look like small brass grub screws and yes, they have been known to leak. It should, with care, be possible to remove the offending grub screw and seal it with something like green Loctite or a small dab of epoxy before reinstalling the screw.

Pete
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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:52 am

Top photo, the little screw on the far hand left side seems to be loose....
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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:01 am

You're right on both accounts Pete.

Adios Photobucket! any recommendations for a replacement? I've just tried Imagur, which seems to hange just as I complete registration.

In the mean time, that sounds exactly like this item, except there is no screw in it as far as I can see, but my vision close up ain't as good as ot use to be. Maybe I've lost a screw rather than just having one loose!
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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:04 am

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:04 am

What? The 8mm hex head bolt? That is one of the two long 6mm shank clamping bolts that clamp the gasket at the rear of the cam chain tunnel. Yes, if they are loose there is a very good chance the head gasket will leak. Nip it up. Remember it's only a 6mm bolt so don't torque it up to a trillion mile tonnes!

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:06 am

Karman wrote:
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Yup, that's the cooling gallery blanking plug. It's a grub screw. 3mm hex?
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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:08 am

I'm going to disappear and probe this cavity......
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:09 am

Karman wrote:
You're right on both accounts Pete.

Adios Photobucket! any recommendations for a replacement? I've just tried Imagur, which seems to hange just as I complete registration.

In the mean time, that sounds exactly like this item, except there is no screw in it as far as I can see, but my vision close up ain't as good as ot use to be. Maybe I've lost a screw rather than just having one loose!

If the screw was missing it would be jetting out oil like a Texas Gusher! The plug has to be in there, it's just leaking.

Pete
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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:27 am

I've just beem out for an inspection. there is another grub screw set into the barrel, which is indeed 3mm. When I try to peer down the hole in the head, I can't see the bottom of it, and it swallowed 95mm of my 3mm allan key and didn't hit anything solid. If there is a plug down there, I'm gonna need a longer hex key.

On the right hand cyclinder head there is also what seems to be a vacan hole, though no evidence of any oil leaking. It looks alloy on the right side, rather than a brass sleeve like the left.
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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:47 pm

I've had a pleasant evening, part of which was spent flat on my back lying underneath the left pot with the engine running to see if there was evidence of oil making it's way out this passage. Nothing. Maybe I'm wrong about the origin of this oil.

It did occur to me that these channels may be a way of getting heat out of the cylinder head.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:49 pm

Well there should be and that drilling should meet up with a cross drilling that carries the coolant flow. If it was mis-drilled it won't connect up which is the only reason why, if it isn't plugged, that oil isn't pissing out of it!

Grab a can of carby cleaner and give it a thorough clean and wash and then carefully seal it with epoxy. Allow it to set or a day or two without starting the bike and see if it that fixes it.

Pete
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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:22 am

Mystery solved!

Background - I took the bike in to place where I bought the bike from new last year - The rocket Centre Blackburn. I was planning to ride out to the Factory last September, but didn't fancy the prospect of a tappet going bad, so hoping to catch somegenerosity from Piaggio if the tappets were failing, I took the bike in for inspection. The Rocket Centre had dropped Moto Guzzi from their line up, but were still servicing existing customers.

Three weeks later (?) the workshop called to say the tappets were unblemished and asked what I wanted to do. Having got this far, I decide to rollerise, and replace the left hand rocker cover as it had collected a ding. The bike finally came back to me on 14th October. The delay was accreditted to annaul leave at the Rocket Centre and the Factory.

Skip to this year - on a run down to Spain I first noticed evidence of oil mist around the LH pot, and recently this has got worse, leading me to clean and inspect and finally finding the mystery hole.

The hole is in fact a drain channel for the spark plug pit. Today I pulled spark plug cover and spark plug and peered down with a torch. Evidence of oil leaking down into the spark plug pit. Off with the rocker cover and I find the replacement is not the correct item for the cam box, the new cambox needs an O ring on the mating surface.

The Rocket Centre is closing, so chances of resolving this are slim. I've re-assembled with silicon bridging the gap between rocker cover and cam box, so hopefully I will be back on the road shortly.

Andy
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:34 pm

Ah, well that would explain it. I was thinking the 'Wrong 'Ole'!

What I can't understand is how they've managed to fit the wrong cambox/rocker assembly? Or is it that they've fitted a new 'Old' style rocker cover onto an 'A' kit cambox? The two sets of parts are completely incompatible! Sounds like it's just as well they are going out of business.

Oh, and how many miles were on the bike when it's tappets were declared 'Perfect'? If over 10,000 I'd bet London to a brick they never bothered looking!

Pete
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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:43 pm

13000 or there abouts. I have the old ones and they do look unblemished. I'll check again tomorrow.
Yes it's the old style cover that locates with the central male tube rising to enter a hole with an O ring inside it to keep the oil in. The one I need fully floating with a recess for an oring to seal against the flat surface. The more I think about it the madder I get - I paid top dollar to maintain the service history and it looks as if these cowboys new they were going out of business. The "seal" was achieved by overtightening the four retaining scres so the rubber gasket was completly depressed, but with nothing in the central unnel where the spark plug lives to keep the oil in. They should have givene me the option of going with my old cover or waiting for the right one to come in, but instead they bodged.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:58 pm

Can you bung me a few pics of the old flat tappets? I'd like to cast an eye over them.

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Karman
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:10 pm

Will do Pete, but it will be in a couple of weeks time, flying over to Spain first thing. I've set a reminder and will get on it when I'm back.

Cheers.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:35 am

Karman wrote:
Mystery solved!

Background - I took the bike in to place where I bought the bike from new last year - The rocket Centre Blackburn. I was planning to ride out to the Factory last September, but didn't fancy the prospect of a tappet going bad, so hoping to catch somegenerosity from Piaggio if the tappets were failing, I took the bike in for inspection. The Rocket Centre had dropped Moto Guzzi from their line up, but were still servicing existing customers.

Three weeks later (?) the workshop called to say the tappets were unblemished and asked what I wanted to do. Having got this far, I decide to rollerise, and replace the left hand rocker cover as it had collected a ding. The bike finally came back to me on 14th October. The delay was accreditted to annaul leave at the Rocket Centre and the Factory.

Andy

And Andrew got some pics of his 'Unblemished' tappets to me. Here they are for your edification and enjoyment.....

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I wonder how many other owners who have PAID a so called PROFFESIONAL to strip and inspect their camboxes have been told the same thing?? Rolling Eyes I mean, this engine is so easy to work on and the damage is blindingly obvious! What in the name of all that is holy are these people thinking or playing at?

I am just so glad I'm retiring soon so I don't have to deal with such fuquetardery any more!

Pete

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Guzzi Cat
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:36 pm

When I see the type of crap that Karman has to put up with from a dealer it makes me feel better about the fact that there isn't an official Guzzi dealer over here and hence there isn't much choice but to roll up the sleeves and get stuck in with the help from people on forums like this. At least if we do make a cock up (which is quite possible) it is not from negligence or not giving a shit.

I know this is not really an option for people that don't like to dabble with tools and that is the reason they have no option only to rely on an honest professional.

P.S. Karman I sure hope that you converted the right side to rollers also, if not I wouldn't waste time.

Cheers to all the knowledgeable people on here (ye know who ye are) that help other passionate guzzi nuts out. Thumbs Up
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rustyrotor
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:04 pm

Pete, you coming to 'Murika (Fuck yeah) one more time before you pack it in?

I could sure use having this bike given a thorough going over. Maybe even rollerized.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:39 pm

We're over again at the end of June next year but I'm not planning on doing any work. Mind you if your bike needs rollerising we might be able to persuade Bill to let me do it in his garage and it could be videoed or at least Bill would be able to take a zillion pics and it could be put up here for teaching purposes.

Pete
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone know what this is?   Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:16 pm

I'm struggling to keep up with this thread but......sounds like you are saying they left out the o ring at the bottom end of the tube and that they over tightened the cam cover to compensate which is hard to understand if it is the o ring cos it's more of a vertical seal (although at some point you seem to say they left out the entire tube from cam cover to cam box floor) ?... .. OR did you mean the flat washer between top of tube and cambox was missing....either way where did you stick the sealant ?? Sorry for questions but hopefully it's adding to the learning pool.

If the only impact is a slight oil mist I'm amazed it wasn't p*ssng oil on a long run to spain........but at least I've learned about the small grub screw thingies that I never even knew existed and that dealers think it's normal for bikes to chew their tappet tops after 13K miles....
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