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 Serial #s and Flat Tappets

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:33 am

Mate I'm not any sort of 'God', I'm just a bloke, but I do understand how engines work and it just shits me to tears when I read utter bollocks and impossible claims. Just because some people wish for something to be possible doesn't mean that it is!

Pete
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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:17 am

Hm, I'm not the first one here who gets this kit. Power diagrams with comparisons before/after of those guys who already did this claim that this setup will match my modest needs.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:39 pm

Excellent, as I said, knock yerself out. I can think of a lot better things to spend a ton of money on.

Pete
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:11 pm

Highlander, I had a look at that website but I don't speak German.
However, I can read photos, what concerns me is their picture of a cam and flat tappets. Why would you post a photo of the problem, and not the fix.
They're multiskilled, they do cars, BMW's, Guzzi and have a glossy website, we have those types of shops here too.

Pete is a specialist.

I went to a local car shop here as they have their own TV show, all I needed was a quiet exhaust and fuel economy for my work vehicle, all they wanted to sell me was a loud exhaust system that would give a deaf mute constant headaches. "But it sounds real good mate". I told 'em to fuck off!
In other words, they were full of marketing (bullshit) lingo, HP figures, looks cool, sounds great, wank wank that helps hipsters part with their money.

Highlander, would you go to your family doctor if you needed glasses, or to an optometrist (specialist)?
Actually, a good "general practitioner" will always refer you to a "specialist".
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:29 pm

The reason why they have a picture of flat tappets is because that's what their system uses Wayne!

There is this bizarre belief in Germany that the flat tappet engines, especially the early ones, are 'More Powerful' than the roller motors. So there are at least a couple of mobs who grind their own cams and make their own DLC coated flat tappets. This lot also, as can be seen in the pic, use conventional double valve springs rather than the beehive single springs used by the factory.

That alone causes me some concern as the spring pressure exerted by that set up, while it may in fact be useful in preventing damage to the DLC coating of the tappets by ensuring they remain in contact with the cam lobes at all time will also add greatly to the stress on the neck of the valves and most importantly given this is supposed to be a 'Performance' modification will consume considerable extra energy from the motor in the form of frictional losses and the overcoming of spring tension.

To me the whole shebang looks poorly thought out and relies on a variety of performance tuning assumptions that in the case of the Guzzi 8V are of questionable relevance. Convincing people who don't want to be convinced though is basically impossible so I've given up trying. That kit isn't cheap though. For that sort of money you could have custom built top of the range suspension and absolutely killer brakes both of which will make a bike considerably quicker, if not faster, but of course they don't have the cachet of a piece of paper saying your engine makes 120HP even though nobody rides around on a street bike at WFO all the time.

Pete
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:15 pm

No point preaching to the converted ...................... the rest have their own religion. I'm happy with my pissy 79rwhp/60ft.lbs 2 valve dunga.

These days I am trying to resist getting involved in OP suspension mods. I know I bang on about things here as some self professed know-it-all. Recently I had face to face experience with a group of people enquiring about the how's and why's, I got to see the eyes glaze over on the vast majority. They're either not interested or haven't got a clue. Maybe its my delivery technique but I don't give a shit, I'm not trying to sell anything.

13 years ago I rode to Sydney to attend Tony Foales 2 day suspension kinematics seminar, got the book n puta program. I probably understand less than 5% of all that Tony teaches, but that 5% increased my knowledge 1000 fold. Since then I have experimented with and developed several of my own bikes, learning and coming to understand a small portion of the "Black art".

But I'm over it ................... I see Bella with a For Sale sign in the near future.


Last edited by ghezzi on Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:44 pm

2highlander wrote:


What would You do in my place to egalize the power lack?

I had a 09 GRiSO...actually my first Guzzi.
I loved the kick in the butt the flat tappet had when you got to the 5500rpm mark.
Pete educated us on it and it was mostly due to the factory map (68s) of the flattie.
Now, it's obvious that the roller bikes have a different factory map...do you have that map now that your bike is rollerized?
I currently own a new 2017 and this thing "feels" stronger than my 09 ever was, especially down low and mid range RPMs.

There are folks here in the US, that claim they have a recipe for making the 8V faster like your German masterbators but they fail to mention that the bike will run like shit because they can't come up with a real decent map for their so called souped up engine.
One bloke even has his own forum/web site and exhaust system at outrageous prices and still can't deliver on a well functioning bike after all that cash.
Fuck that!

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:17 pm

Actually the 68S was the non homologated factory map and probably the best of them.

The early bikes had maps that in the factory tooling were described as the GRS8V-01 & 02 maps. The 01 was truly dreadful a horrible thing that caused the bike to lurch and stutter on a constant throttle and run like a drugged marmot below 5,500 followed by the 'Kick in the pants' above that as it finally began to fuel semi-correctly. The 02 map was a very slight improvement but was still awful. Come about mid to late 2010 I believe they started using the GRS8V-03 map and this map is what has continued to be used by all Grisos since that time, flat or roller. It's OK but pretty anaemic really. It also depends on the crude closed loop system to cope with breathing differences created by the flat or roller top ends which in itself suggests it isn't exactingly crafted for purpose.

One of the issues that is obvious to us is that the VAST majority, if not all of these 'Tuning Experts' have a very, very simple mantra when it comes to mapping. The widely held, (And WRONG belief is that these bikes are mapped lean to meet emmisions standards and as a consequence they all seem to think that the panacea for all ills is to turn off the lambda and throw fuel at it. Most of them don't use any sort of delta correction and, (Mark will correct me if I'm wrong.) don't make any changes to any of the multitude of other correction tables. A tiny bit of very conservative fiddling with the spark may also be half heartedly attempted!

Thing is we've seen most of these maps and opened them in Tunerpro which allows you to see what changes have been made, or not made more to the point. It's woeful and shows a profound ignorance of some of the basic tenets of the workings of internal combustion engines in the early parts of the 21st century as well as a timidity towards understanding the very skills and services you are supposed to be providing.

The great and towering irony is that in one little diatribe on his advertising portal one of our greatest critics claimed that 'cheap solutions' such as Guzzidiag and Reader and Writer and Marks maps were "Dangerous" and hilariously, "You get what you pay for!" The hypocrisy of this statement is actually staggering as the truth of the matter is if you purchase a solution from that source you DON'T get what you pay for! You get the result of someone who doesn't have a clue what he's doing flailing about in the dark!

Pete
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:59 pm

ghezzi wrote:
............... I see Bella with a For Sale sign in the near future.

are you getting a GRiSO then??? :-)
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ghezzi
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:51 am

sidrat wrote:
ghezzi wrote:
............... I see Bella with a For Sale sign in the near future.

are you getting a GRiSO then??? :-)

Nah, just see the end of the road for my riding career, no health issues just losing the interest ..............
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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:46 am


^^^^^

Sad

Bill
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Grisonut
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:46 am

^^^^^^^ Thanks Pete for the clarification...I remember now about the 68s not being pre-installed at the factory.
In fact, Steve from Dahlonega at the time, sneaked that map in for me when they had the bike for the flange oil leak recall.
So, many thanks to him. I miss those Riders Hill days... Sad
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sidrat
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:12 am

ghezzi wrote:
sidrat wrote:
ghezzi wrote:
............... I see Bella with a For Sale sign in the near future.

are you getting a GRiSO then??? :-)

Nah, just see the end of the road for my riding career, no health issues just losing the interest ..............

Sorry to hear that my friend.

I cannot wait to get out for a ride on mine, i have more plans for biking this year than i have the time or the money, if you no longer have the passion though then its time to look for something else to light your fire.

Of course your bike has far too many modifications, so no one will want to buy it, just ship it to me i have room in the garage Razz
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:12 am

Wayne, you aren't alone.

Just a couple of points from my own experience.

While I still enjoy stuff like working on the 1400 project and most critically diagnostic work I'm finding it harder and harder to maintain any enthusiasm for my *Everyday* work. What I have done though is separate work from pleasure and I have been trying to take a ride, even a short one, every day. I find it good for the soul.

Secondly, take a break, do something else! Train someone else up to do what you do with a view to turning your business over and concentrate on yourself! Take a holiday and do something different!

While not suggesting or expecting you to do something similar choose your poison! Jude and I are off to India and Canada/The US this year and there will be no motorbikes involved apart from when seeing friends. Even when taking a short break in Oz we often just pick some small bumfuck town and go there for a night or two, sure, we are a couple, but I've done it many times alone. Fresh horizons and people are good for the soul as well.

Park Bella for six months. Take a break. Then come back and make a decision. What's the old saying? Act in haste but repent at leisure!

Pete
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PostSubject: Re: Serial #s and Flat Tappets   Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:07 am

Thanks Pete, there is a small window of opportunity on the horizon, if all my ducks line up ................... I may be able to retire in 18 months .............. then Bella will have lots of company in the stable .............. and I will have time, and hopefully the inclination to flog the living crap out of the lot of them.

Otherwise I'll be a busted arse cranky old fart, oops, to late for that.

First creation in my fantasy world will be a 375/6 developed from a couple of CBR250RR's, 6 open megaphones at 19,500rpm.
What a sweet sound up through the hills at 6am on a crisp spring morning.

Then I will have to build "Franken Ghezzi" Bwwoorrhorrhorrhorrrr!
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