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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:08 am

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cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers




Last Saturday I was finally able to collect my 'C-kit' from the local dealer. The short story is, after my bad experience with this local dealer (very expensive 10k service, with major issues afterwards that left me stranded twice, including ruining my diving weekend after they had supposedly 'fixed' the issue and had me charged another 100 euro's for that!) rather than the free oil change they offered I asked them to get the rollerisation kit for my GRiSO under warranty as 'compensation'. To their credit they did. I supplied all the evidence (photo's of service intervals, engine marking etc.) myself which the dealer forwarded to Moto Guzzi. This was back in October, the kit finally arrived last week.  cheers

Here are photo's of the contents of the kit. I'm hopeful someone can tell from them if the kit is complete! I'm asking because the box contained one opened plastic bag with nothing in it  affraid

2 camshafts
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2 bags that came with the camshafts, with in total 4 metal 'domes' and 2 black metal parts
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1 bag with 4 valve stem seals
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4 bags with in total 4 donut shaped metal plates(1 of the bags also has the circular cutout in it)
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6 bags with metal gaskets (in 3 sizes/thicknesses, I'm assuming these are the shims that vary per GRiSO year)
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2 intake gaskets
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2 exhaust header gaskets
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2 rubber valve cover gaskets
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collection of o-rings
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Empty plastic bag clown
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I bet the person who assembled the kit back at Mandello included that empty opened bag after first throwing away the list of contents, all the while laughing maniacally!!  Twisted Evil
Hopefully nothing is missing and my GRiSO's rollerisation can finally commence! cheers cheers cheers


Last edited by motor-timothy on Fri May 11, 2018 12:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sidrat
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sidrat

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:01 pm

I hope for your sake its complete
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:39 pm

Looks like it’s pretty much all there. With regard to what you call ‘O Rings’ the thicker neoprene donuts are the tampons that go under the rocker cover bolts, there should be eight, The actual O Rings are the plug tube sealing rings and there should be four of them.

The head gaskets are head gaskets. The things you refer to as ‘Donut shaped metal plates’ are the valve seat shims. The ‘Metal Domes’are the pads that sit on top of the tappets in the rockers and allow for the lateral movement as the rockers rock.

The ‘Black, metal parts’ are the new earthing tangs and go under the two central retaining bolts of the rocker retainer plate on the cambox.

Pete
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:14 am

Pete Roper wrote:
Looks like it’s pretty much all there. With regard to what you call ‘O Rings’ the thicker neoprene donuts are the tampons that go under the rocker cover bolts, there should be eight, The actual O Rings are the plug tube sealing rings and there should be four of them.

The head gaskets are head gaskets. The things you refer to as ‘Donut shaped metal plates’ are the valve seat shims. The ‘Metal Domes’are the pads that sit on top of the tappets in the rockers and allow for the lateral movement as the rockers rock.

The ‘Black, metal parts’ are the new earthing tangs and go under the two central retaining bolts of the rocker retainer plate on the cambox.

Pete

Thanks Pete!
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pauldaytona
Fra Cristoforo
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pauldaytona

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:40 pm

So who will be mounting the kit?

Bring the bike to Motortoer?
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:34 am

pauldaytona wrote:
So who will be mounting the kit?

Bring the bike to Motortoer?

They or TLM, not sure yet. Do you have any experience with either of them?
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pauldaytona
Fra Cristoforo
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pauldaytona

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:24 am

I trust them both to do it, one is near, the other far away. Easy choice. You can ask both what it costs beforehand.
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:01 am

pauldaytona wrote:
Bring the bike to Motortoer?

Unfortunately Motortoer no longer services any brand other than Ducati apparently. They told me to go to TLM Laughing


edit: Just got a mail from TLM, they told me it will be around (but not more than) 500€, including new oil & filter. This seems reasonable yes?
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:23 am

Right the bike is up for being rollerized next week at TLM!

Good timing too I think, as the bike has all of a sudden developed a very worrying sound. As of last week it now sounds exactly (and I mean exactly) like the GRiSO in this video I found from 2010:

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Shocked
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pauldaytona
Fra Cristoforo
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pauldaytona

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:42 am

you are not supposed to drive it while it is broken, all small particles come off and go into all holes and places in the engine. Also in between the bearings.
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DeepSpace
Grignapoco
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:01 am

Nice! I would bring it on an trailer too if i were you (maybe they still do the pick up thing)
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motor-timothy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:25 am

pauldaytona wrote:
you are not supposed to drive it while it is broken, all small particles come off and go into all holes and places in the engine. Also in between the bearings.  

Hmm...you reckon its that bad? I've been riding it for almost two years, surely those small particles from the destroyed DLC coating are already there and 1 more ride to the dealer won't do much worse?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:22 pm

Just read over on WG that Moto International are saying the factory is no longer giving kits away as goodwill even if all criteria are met. Only hearsay but........
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:33 pm

motor-timothy wrote:
Right the bike is up for being rollerized next week at TLM!

Good timing too I think, as the bike has all of a sudden developed a very worrying sound. As of last week it now sounds exactly (and I mean exactly) like the GRiSO in this video I found from 2010:

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Shocked

No, very bad timing. You left it far too late. Well please don’t say you weren’t warned......
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motor-timothy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:40 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
motor-timothy wrote:
Right the bike is up for being rollerized next week at TLM!

Good timing too I think, as the bike has all of a sudden developed a very worrying sound. As of last week it now sounds exactly (and I mean exactly) like the GRiSO in this video I found from 2010:

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Shocked

No, very bad timing. You left it far too late. Well please don’t say you weren’t warned......


Not by choice Pete. I had the local dealer inspect the tappets last summer and they told me they were fine and they couldn't do the warranty claim due to this.  Evil or Very Mad  After all the other hassle I had with them they eventually agreed to do the warranty claim after I insisted the tappets had damage  (I provided all the needed photographs etc. myself) in October. Only last month did the kit finally arrive, so not exactly much I could have done to speed things up.

Pete Roper wrote:
Just read over on WG that Moto International are saying the factory is no longer giving kits away as goodwill even if all criteria are met. Only hearsay but........

That's really nasty if its true.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:55 pm

Well it’s unfortunate but the problem has been well known for at least five or six years. I’m afraid that a lot of this would seem to be down to dealers either being unwilling or able to look for damage or simply not recognising it when they see it.

As I’ve said before I think the whole issue was handled terribly and dishonestly by Piaggio but there comes a point where enough has to be enough. Most of the rollerisations we’re doing nowadays the owners just want it done. They’d rather just pay and have the bike back than wait around for months while the importer and Piaggio wander around with their heads up their arses.

Pete
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motor-timothy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:25 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
I’m afraid that a lot of this would seem to be down to dealers either being unwilling or able to look for damage or simply not recognising it when they see it.

Well you determined from my photo's that the mechanic didn't actually check my bike's tappets, they just let me pay for it! So unwilling would be one word, criminal would be another.

Quote :
As I’ve said before I think the whole issue was handled terribly and dishonestly by Piaggio but there comes a point where enough has to be enough. Most of the rollerisations we’re doing nowadays the owners just want it done. They’d rather just pay and have the bike back than wait around for months while the importer and Piaggio wander around with their heads up their arses.

Pete

I'd agree if they had actually done a recall. It's been only about 6 years since they started making 8v's with roller tappets, and there are plenty people who don't visit forums that are clueless to this issue. Spoke to a Stelvio rider couple months back and he had never heard of it. Thankfully for him he rode a 2013 make.


Anyhow nothing to be done about my bike now but get the tappets done and hope for the best. I'll be sure to post pictures of the old tappets here.
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motor-timothy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Thu May 03, 2018 11:44 am

Signature updated cheers



Just got home from my 2 day rollerization excursion to TLM (I slept at friends nearby) without problems.

To my disappointment (but as expected) the damage was quite significant. On the left side (almost) no DLC coating remains on the tappets. On the right side a bit more DLC remains. The camshafts on both sides actually have areas that are pitted/scratched. I took the discarded camboxes home , so here are the pictures. This is after 13.000km's (bike from 2009):

Left side:
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Right side:
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Overview:
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According to the mechanic who serviced my bike (nice guy, had a lengthy chat with him. He told me has been performing this conversion a lot for the past 5 years.) there is unlikely to be damage to the engine itself, and there was no noticeable metal debris at the oil drain magnet. So hopefully I was just in time before serious damage has been done.
Bike ran great on the way home, though the throttle reaction is suddenly much jerkier than previously, much more on/off than before which is a little annoying at slow traffic. Probably due to the new map?

Also, the annoying loud rattle which I thought were the tappets, was actually the headlight shell/rim being loose pig


What bothers me though, is that last year I paid my local official moto guzzi dealer to inspect the tappets, they charged me something like 100€ for it, and afterwards they told me absolutely nothing was wrong with the tappets...no damage/wear whatsoever. Since then I've only ridden 2.000km's and now they look like this... Those lying, thieving bastards Evil or Very Mad
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Thu May 03, 2018 1:59 pm

No new map. Same map as flatties.


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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Thu May 03, 2018 2:23 pm

As I’ve said before, I’ve done over a hundred rollerisations now, we’ve seen three engines that destroyed their bottom ends after rollerisation. The chances aren’t high but they are there, that’s why we always drop the sump and spacer for a good clean out rather than simply ‘Flushing’ the engine as the factory suggests.

Your experience at the other shop is far from unusual and one of the main reasons I am so skeptical about work done by other people.

Pete
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motor-timothy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Fri May 04, 2018 11:42 am

Thanks Pete, hopefully I won't be one of those 3%  affraid  So far the bike hasn't exploded yet and seems to run fine. The only oddity is that the bike when I start it has the idle surging to over 2.000RPM for 7 seconds or so before returning to 1250RPM. I inspected the airbleed screws visually and it seems both of them are very open, so I suspect tuning it myself (planned for tomorrow) will fix that.
Also, the start button used to start the bike with just a light quick push. Since the conversion I have to press it quite hard and deep before it starts. There is no reason for them to have done anything to the start console or the electrics of the bike for the conversion is there?


beetle wrote:
No new map. Same map as flatties.



Thanks. I just checked the map with guzzidiag and made a backup. The new map is 2230G803, while the previous map was the 2229GRS8v68. To be honest the older map was much smoother. This new G803 map is much jerkier at low speed/gears. Is this a known thing with this map? And if the roller&flats use the same maps, could I safely reinstall the GRS8v68 map from my backup?

Also, once my wallet has recovered I'd like to purchase your map. But how/where would I purchase this?


Last edited by motor-timothy on Sat May 05, 2018 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Fri May 04, 2018 2:43 pm

Ye Gods! They clearly didn't do a TB balance after rollerizing. And you had the 68S map? Put it back in!

The factory says to use the 2230G803 map in technical bulletin. The 68S is superior in every possible way, but was never homogolated.

If & when you decide to install one of my maps, look here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]





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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Fri May 04, 2018 3:08 pm

If both the air bleeds are open that’s really a bit of a worry. TLM have a good reputation but if they still haven’t learnt how to tune a W5AM bike properly after twelve years of production it’s easy to see why Piaggio is turning to RBW/No touchee/bury the single TB where nobody can get to it technology as the overall workforce has become so de-skilled and disinterested in doing a good job that expecting ‘Technicians’ to bother to learn how to maintain a product would seem like a vain hope!

Gods teeth!

Pete
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motor-timothy
Biondino
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Sat May 05, 2018 8:47 am

I have to correct my visual observation from yesterday, the right airbleed was closed. I think they might not have re-balanced the throttle bodies at all, its not listed in the bill at least.

I've succesfully put the 68S map back in, then rebalanced everything with my carbtune pro. It seems the compression is higher now, before the conversion the carbtune bars would be around 25-30% up when doing the balancing, now its more like 50-60%. Is that as it should be?

Unfortunately the 'issue' with the idle is still there. After I closed both air bleeds the idle was low, but then the carbtune would show different bar heights. Opening the left air bleed to get the bars equal results in the higher idle at startup, though less than it was before.
Rather than 2000RPM it now surges to about 1400RPM upon starting, then jumps around a bit between 1300 and 1400 for a couple of seconds, then goes to give or take 1250RPM and stays there.
Any ideas/suggestions? Or is this essentially fine?

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pauldaytona
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! Icon_minitime1Sat May 05, 2018 1:49 pm

You mean from cold startup or warm engine?
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