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beetle
GRiSO Capo
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beetle

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Join date : 2013-09-30

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat May 05, 2018 3:05 pm

RPM will be a bit higher on start-up, usually around 1500. Depending on the actual engine temperature, it will either slowly drop to 1200-1250 (cold engine), or quite rapidly (hot engine). It shouldn't surge at any time.

Do you know what they set the valve clearances at? They should be 0.1 in, 0.15 ex.

Question



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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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Join date : 2016-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun May 06, 2018 2:22 pm

I'll check the valve clearances on my next day off, but I assume they set them right.

I've done some further testing today. It seems my efforts from yesterday have done absolutely nothing. The high idle happens on both cold starts and also on starts while the engine is warm (after refueling etc.). After the engine starts the idle is roughly 1800RPM (on guzzidiag). It stays there for about 15-20 seconds, then near instantly drops to around 1250RPM where it stays until I turn off the engine. Very strange.
Could a leak in the exhaust system before the oxygen sensor be the cause of this? Is there any way to check the oxygen sensor readings in guzzidiag?
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun May 06, 2018 2:32 pm

The oxygen sensor has no affect at idle. Worth checking for leaks, but you need to check your valves.



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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun May 06, 2018 2:48 pm

If it’s any consolation to you when my shitheap is cold it does this too. It’s of so little consequence I’ve never bothered doing anything about it.

Just as an aside. Do you hold the clutch in when starting?
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 07, 2018 12:18 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
If it’s any consolation to you when my shitheap is cold it does this too. It’s of so little consequence I’ve never bothered doing anything about it.

Just as an aside. Do you hold the clutch in when starting?

Right, it's just odd because it behaved differently before. So there has to be a reason why the idle behavior has suddenly changed.

I usually don't hold the clutch when starting in neutral.
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GHTE
Nibbio
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GHTE

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 07, 2018 4:25 pm

Is it advised to hold the clutch in when starting?
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beetle
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beetle

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 07, 2018 4:44 pm

Only if you have the gearbox engaged. Razz


He's referring to the peculiarities of the 2230G803 map, which increases idle ~300 RPM when the clutch is engaged. Assuming your clutch switch is functioning.



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Converted Duc
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Converted Duc

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 07, 2018 5:44 pm

While I am sure you don't need encouragement, I have moved to the Beetle map and will never go back, I know you will read this comment over and over on these forums but I just can't stress it enough. Beetle is a genius when it comes to making the GRiSO run like it should from new.
I recently helped Moby go to the Mistral map and he appeared rather chuffed at the changes. My first thoughts were omg where is the power gone. But I was fooled by the smoooooooth delivery all the way to red line. The bike runs better in every respect and is more economical to boot.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 07, 2018 7:19 pm

Wot he says ^^^^^
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed May 09, 2018 4:26 am

Just had contact with TLM, they told me the idle rising to 2.000 for 20 seconds or so on both cold and warm starts is working as intended. According to them the bike not doing this before implies there was a problem which is now somehow fixed. I'll take it.

Converted Duc wrote:
While I am sure you don't need encouragement, I have moved to the Beetle map and will never go back, I know you will read this comment over and over on these forums but I just can't stress it enough. Beetle is a genius when it comes to making the GRiSO run like it should from new.
I recently helped Moby go to the Mistral map and he appeared rather chuffed at the changes. My first thoughts were omg where is the power gone. But I was fooled by the smoooooooth delivery all the way to red line. The bike runs better in every respect and is more economical to boot.

Thumbs Up

Definitely going to, just want to make sure the bike is problem-free before I purchase the map-from-heaven which might mask certain things due to being so amazing (lambda sensor being disabled for example?) clown

@Beetle, is there any way in guzzidiag to check for say intake leaks? For example I noticed I can see various Lambda mV values. Could these be read to see if the lambda probe detects excessive oxygen in the mixture or doesn't it work like that?
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beetle
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beetle

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed May 09, 2018 5:43 am

If it was a wideband sensor, then I would say yes. However, the narrowband sensor operates over a range of about 1000mV, with a lean value in the 100mV - 400mV range. Typical operating AFR is 14.5-15.1. The narrowband sensor is also slow to react. GuzziDiag is only reading the value from the ADC in the ECU, so accuracy is questionable. I think it would prove fruitless.



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sideshowbob
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sideshowbob

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed May 09, 2018 8:41 am

A small sprits of starting fluid on the intake boots while idling will quickly rule out or confirm intake leaks.
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moby
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moby

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu May 10, 2018 12:55 am

Converted Duc wrote:
While I am sure you don't need encouragement, I have moved to the Beetle map and will never go back, I know you will read this comment over and over on these forums but I just can't stress it enough. Beetle is a genius when it comes to making the GRiSO run like it should from new.
I recently helped Moby go to the Mistral map and he appeared rather chuffed at the changes. My first thoughts were omg where is the power gone. But I was fooled by the smoooooooth delivery all the way to red line. The bike runs better in every respect and is more economical to boot.

Moby is still Chuffed !! I see why so many have the Mistral high pipe and Beetle Map combination. Made me forget about wanting more unicorn.
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu May 10, 2018 1:13 am

beetle wrote:
The oxygen sensor has no affect at idle. Worth checking for leaks, but you need to check your valves.




Valves clearances were okey(ish), though the adjuster nuts were tightened with what felt like 30Nm. Intake varied between 0.10 and 0.20, Exhaust between 0.15 and 0.25. I set everything to 0.10 in /0.15 out. Now just to find out why its running lean.
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jretanacr
Tanabuso
Tanabuso
jretanacr

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Age : 33

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri May 11, 2018 11:55 am

Pete Roper wrote:
As I’ve said before, I’ve done over a hundred rollerisations now, we’ve seen three engines that destroyed their bottom ends after rollerisation. The chances aren’t high but they are there, that’s why we always drop the sump and spacer for a good clean out rather than simply ‘Flushing’ the engine as the factory suggests.

Your experience at the other shop is far from unusual and one of the main reasons I am so skeptical about work done by other people.

Pete

Can you please confirm which parts you refer to. The Oil Sump right ? and which one is the spacer?

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri May 11, 2018 12:25 pm

The spacer is the part directly above the sump that separates it from the block.

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jretanacr
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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri May 11, 2018 12:27 pm

Thank you.
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 15, 2018 8:52 am

I finally got around to installing Beetle's map today. Through the dark magic contained within the map, the idle immediately behaved much more sensible. Rather than 2000RPM it idles to around 1650RPM for a couple of seconds on start, then drops to around 1200. cheers

I noticed CO trim is set to 0, is there a recommended CO trim value for the 2009 8v GRiSO or is it a matter of trial and error to determine the best value?
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beetle
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beetle

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 15, 2018 1:36 pm

It shouldn't need CO trim adjusted.



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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 15, 2018 2:42 pm

beetle wrote:
It shouldn't need CO trim adjusted.




Ah. I thought with the lambda being off in your map the CO trim could/should be adjusted a little for further finetuning? Very Happy
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed May 16, 2018 11:17 am

motor-timothy wrote:
I finally got around to installing Beetle's map today. Through the dark magic contained within the map, the idle immediately behaved much more sensible. Rather than 2000RPM it idles to around 1650RPM for a couple of seconds on start, then drops to around 1200. cheers


I spoke too soon, started today and the idle at start is back to 2k rpm, and normal idle is now higher, around 1500rpm instead of 1200rpm. I did the 'stepper motor test' in guzzidiag, and basically nothing happened, which is odd because when I did the stepper motor test a couple of months ago it would vary the idle. But if the stepper motor is not functioning/responding to ecu input, it would be hard to start and have a very low idle right?

Friday I'll pull the battery and clean the intakes behind it + the stepper motor entrance with carb cleaner, hopefully that'll do it and my stepper motor isn't completely busted.
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri May 18, 2018 8:52 am

Okey cleaned everything and checked all the hoses. Stepper motor functions, as I could feel the sucking through the hose. Only loose hose I found was the fuel drain from the tank, which explains why I am smelling fuel on warm days at the right side of the bike. The drain hose took considerable effort to re-attach (I asked TLM to clean the nipple while the tank was off, I suppose they forgot to re-attach the hose). Sprayed brake cleaner while idling on all the intake rubbers, but this didn't have much if any effect on the idle.

I cleaned the airbox, there was a little bit of oil but not much despite being a bit overfilled by TLM. I had to drain 250ml of oil to get the oil level 2/3rds between the lower and upper mark on the dipstick.

Then I cleaned the throttle bodies through the airbox with carb cleaner, and after that while idling sprayed multiple shots of carb cleaner through the stepper motor hose. Then I rebalanced the throttle bodies again just to be sure.
So far it seems this may have done it. After the engine had cooled down, I started it (engine temp 30C) Startup idle was 1700, this then dropped to 1300 where it stayed for half a minute or so, eventually it dropped to 1200 and stayed there.

Ps. when I block the stepper hose with my hand, idle drops to about 800-900RPM but the bike doesn't stall. Does this indicate an air leak somewhere?


Edit: after riding for a couple of days idle is back to high: 2000rpm on startup, 1400 afterwards. Sad
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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 21, 2018 10:06 am

Today out of nowhere the bike started and idled perfectly. 1500RPM on start, 1200RPM normal idle. The only thing I did was fit 2 o-rings inside the headlight cover against the rattling. I just don't get it. Laughing
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bahamazoo
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bahamazoo

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Mon May 21, 2018 3:51 pm

mmm, its a Guzzi.... cheers Shocked Razz Razz Razz
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paulbrice
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paulbrice

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PostSubject: Re: Good news!   Good news! - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue May 22, 2018 1:09 am

I don't think vacuum through the inlet pipe necessarily means the stepper is working properly. Even if it gets stuck in a 'step' position it can still pull vacuum/air. Also when I had the valve on the stepper feed pipe; the engine would stall every time I shut the valve completely and would drop revs as I turned it shut; it also took a period of 'up & down dynamics' before idle settled when I twiddled the valve - presumably stepper/Ecu battling to control it. Within a small range I have set up (only one open) air bleed for minimum idle speed (and not quite exact balance Wink ) and I haven't had any surging idle issues since.

I don't think fact yours doesn't stall means there is a leak in the system; but probably means the stepper air:bleed air mixture is more oriented to bleed air ie there's enough bleed air alone to maintain an idle. I also think (no basis !) that also makes it more likely for revs to surge as the stepper is more affecting upside of idle air mixture. If you cut back bleed circuit, stepper would have to operate at a different point and may change dynamics.
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