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 Greetings from finland.

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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 10:40 pm

I have had 2009 GRiSO 1200 s.e for about 3years been riding with grin on my face 20000km. 45000 on the clock now.. yesterday evening beast didn't want to run with both cylinders so i need to check whats in its mind... luckily my loved one owns 2006 GRiSO 850 and i took it out from the same garage and grin was on my face again today as i twisted my wrist against the rising sun... it was 7°C when i started so its summer here in finland and would like to have 8v engine running soon
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Diablo Loco
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:01 pm

Kadonnut wrote:
I have had 2009 GRiSO 1200 s.e for about 3years been riding with grin on my face 20000km. 45000 on the clock now.. yesterday evening beast didn't want to run with both cylinders so i need to check whats in its mind... luckily my loved one owns 2006 GRiSO 850 and i took it out from the same garage and grin was on my face again today as i twisted my wrist against the rising sun... it was 7°C when i started so its summer here in finland and would like to have 8v engine running soon

Welcome! I had it once. If it is the same as my fault it is a common problem.

The plug may be sparking to earth through the plug cap. Easy to diagnose by inserting a thin screwdriver between the head and the plug cap and move it around to see if a spark jumps from the cap to the screwdriver.

Also, if you've not heard about rollerization, you will on this site. Very Happy

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:02 pm

Has it been rollerised? Everything else is secondary.

As DL says, most likely plug cap.

Pete
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:19 pm

I know those thanks to ghetto, never posted but have been reading a lot.. no rollers yet and i'm going to dealer today.. just asking what if... seems like electric fault to me.. but i dont really know the symptoms of tappet failure... it stalls when revving and some oily leak in left injection body
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:22 pm

And i have changed plug caps two years ago.. just wondering what could possibly be wrong .. cos that oil seems to come from injection.. well checked after few beers.. maybe have to check again in sunlight
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:25 pm

Hang on. Are you saying there is oil coming from the throttle body? Perhaps dripping from the butterfly spindle? If so do not even ATTEMPT to start it again. Can you give some more detail? I have alarm bells going off on a dozen levels here.....
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:30 pm

Have to wait until i get home.. 6-7h Wink
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:33 pm

No worries. Some pictures would help. If you are able to remove a rocker cover and set the piston at TDC compression and take a few pics of the tops of the tappets and just feel for play in the rocker arms. Tell me what you find. Also take the airbox lid off and look under the air filter. Is it full of oil in there?

How much is ther in the sump? Have you been adding lots to keep it topped up?

Pete
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:45 pm

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How about this. On one roof in Helsinki...
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:47 pm

Air box was fine.. checked it rightaway yesterday.. ill get back to you after i finish this climbing on roofs
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Mon May 07, 2018 11:50 pm

Helsinki looks fine! I hope you wear a harness up there!

Pete
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 12:23 am

Theres been no need to add oil between service 10k.. engine has been LOUD mechanically.. i have been asking about it at dealer, but they say everything is ok..
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 12:39 am

(Gurgle!)
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 1:14 am

I predict the tappets have had circular grooves ground into them. Or they will look like the surface of the moon. Not the dark side, either......


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Diablo Loco
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 7:13 am

Kadonnut wrote:
Air box was fine.. checked it rightaway yesterday.. ill get back to you after i finish this climbing on roofs


Is that a ladder supported by the ridge capping? Thrillseeker! I like it!

Back to your usual programming...

Sorry about your GRiSO hope it is not too damaged.
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 9:19 am

Well.. im not really sure what you want or dont want to see but ill send some pics as i take this apart... never done anythin much in engines.. but i think i can do something.. its not like building houses or that but still think if pointed in right direction i'll just manage.. afterall im used to take changes ...lots of times they go shite .. but lets see. That one little thingie has come out of its nest and that one maybe rocker likest to rock lots..
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 9:21 am

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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 9:25 am

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Luckily that little candy works.. even if the clutch is noisy.. in both positions Wink
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 10:02 am

Oh shit. Sorry, but the third pic tells everything you need to know very graphically

The pushrod is almost dropping out of the rocker and the top of the tappet is sunken well below the casting of the cambox. Looking at the first two pics you will see there is no thread at all protruding above the adjuster nuts. Your shop has simply kept closing up the gaps as the tappets collapsed through wear, now the damage has become so severe and the cam timing so compromised that the engine has overfuelled to the point where the bores have washed, the rings have worn to the point they can no longer seal and the blow by has forced the heavily fuel contaminated oil out through the breather system where it has flooded the airbox and is now dripping out of the butterfly spindles of the throttle bodies.

This is exactly the same endgame I had with a Stelvio that was allowed to go this far. The contamination of the oil had meant its ability to lubricate was so compromised the cam chains had worn to the point that it was impossible to tighten the cam sprocket bolt without them ratcheting over the sprockets. When I did, finally manage to get them done up tight enough and maintain the timing, even after I’d pumped up the tensioner as soon as I put the plugs back in and tried to fire it up post-rollerisation it jumped three teeth and bent the valves.

On stripping the engine I found virtually everything inside it apart from the bottom end, (Surprisingly!) completely worn out. It required rings, cam chains, valves, full head service, boron hone, new shells, pretty much everything. I managed to get the owner a, thoroughly undeserved as he never bought it to me for service or even bought parts off me, roller kit for nothing but the rebuild cost was in excess of $8.5K AU.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but I think you will be up for the same. Don’t get your ‘Dealer’ to do it! They are obviously morons!

It’s dead. What a shame. Best bet would be to look for a second hand motor out of a post 2013 bike I’d guess, you might need a new set of throttle bodies and stepper on top but hopefully they will be salvageable.

Embarassed

Pete
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 10:31 am

Shitty thing to hear... but what's the dealers part? Full servicemanual every 10k.. stamped in that same place? How can they possibly do this? 45k ridden thing? Is it ok for guzzi that dealer services bikes like this?? Or is it just so i'll go and buy new one cos this is end of its life?.. fuck this world... should do everything by myself even if i dont know how it would be better ... i need beer .. thanks a ton for this fast reply.. im gonna get this one on the street even if its last thing i do.. dont have much money and have to be parent for 4 own and two bonus kids.. but hey thats livin'... shame that some moron can do this kind of thing to others motorcycle... and its offucial guzzi dealer...
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 10:51 am

As I said, i’m Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings and, quite simply, if they have been servicing it every 10,000km it would of been obvious that the valve lash had started opening up long before it got to this stage. The fact that the adjusters are wound so far down should of started alarm bells ringing a long, long time ago. The fact that it makes a noise like two cheese graters fornicating in an iron tank has to mean something? Surely?

Also there were service bulletins, albeit mealy mouthed and ambiguous, on this issue going back to 2012! What have they been doing for the last six years?

The GOOD news is that if you have a full, documented, service history the dealer should be able to submit a claim to the factory and get you a roller kit, (It might be a B or a C kit in 2009. The 2009 I rollerised yesterday needed a ‘B’ kit. Search the forum for details on how to identify which kit you need.). That will substantially reduce the cost but, as I said, it’s been allowed to go on so long and has become so bad I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t substantially more damage to other components in the motor. Just keep your fingers crossed and hope!

What worries me is that if they are so clueless as to diagnosis of the issue can they be relied on to perform any serious engine work reliably? If your bike needs a ‘C’ kit the heads have to come off and the inlet valves removed. While this isn’t a big job it’s not something I’d like to hand to someone who can’t recognise a seriously compromised engine to do!

Whatever you do, do NOT start it again. Don’t even think about it. It’s a heartbeat away from spitting a pushrod and if it does that your world of pain is going to get a whole lot bigger.

Pete

PS. The failure is NOT your dealer’s fault. It was a serious design and materials flaw on the part of the engineers who specified the top end. What is their fault is not recognising there was an issue and then not researching what to do about it. Even if the problem isn’t widely known by owners, even now, anybody working on them professionally should certainly be in the know. All the flat tappet top ends are going to fail. Every single one of them. It takes me 15 minutes to pull a cambox and check. If they start doing that to all their flat tappet 8V owners bikes when they come in for service they’ll soon get very adept at doing rollerisations. We’ve done over a hundred now and believe me, Australia isn’t a huge market for Guzzis!
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 11:09 am

So maybe little visit to dealer again tomorrow... and when you can see this from pics it should not be any issue that i opened this cover my self and not the dealer... cos they might say i broke it when opening .. i know its impossible but still they can.. would really like to live somewhere warm... its going to be summer here soon.. last year it was thursday... Wink) so damn short time to ride here.. i'll hope everything goes well.. looked some engines from net already... what could i fit in here easily? Does it have to be from GRiSO if thats the case? I know very good welder/mechanic bike builder big fan of guzzis too.. so thats not major prob either... thanks a ton to you .. again.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 11:18 am

Any 2013 on 1200-8V be it from a Stelvio, GRiSO or Norge, (But not 1200 Sport!) is a direct transplant. Anything else is too much work.

At first though go back to your shop, stay calm and polite, best if you have a mate with you. Explain what you have found. Explain what needs to be done and ask them for their assistance. You’ll catch a lot more flies with sugar than with vinegar. Whatever you do don’t loose the plot and start shouting. It’ll get you nowhere.

If I can be of any assistance to either yourself or them, just ask. My email is

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Somewhere on the tech section of the forum there is a vid Mark took of me removing the LH cambox off a GRiSO. If they haven’t done one before it might be worth showing to them.

Pete

(Groan.) it’s 4.20AM! My foot is killing me with gout, I can’t sleep and I’m making someone on the other side of the world very unhappy! What fun? NOT!


Last edited by Pete Roper on Tue May 08, 2018 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kadonnut
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 11:24 am

Service history from book.. 08.04.2009 1126km (italy), 7.7.2010 10260km (italy), 15.4.2011 17300km(italy), 17.4.2013 24183km (fin) 21.5.2014 28962km (fin current), 15.5.2015 31980km (current dealer), 3.5.2016 33178km (current), 14.6.2017 42095km (current) ... now it has ~45500km... should be serviced ok? Ant as current i mean official guzzi dealer..
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Greetings from finland.    Tue May 08, 2018 11:32 am

Looks good to me but it’s the factory that has the final say.

The shop has to strip out the camboxes and send pics of the damaged parts along with pics of the markings on the cylinder heads next to the date stamp on the castings, a picture of the inside of the rocker covers, the vin # and copies of the service history.

If everything goes according to plan a kit should be approved and then you just have to wait for delivery.

You will be required to pay for installation and I would strongly recommend dropping the sump for a good clean out rather than simply following the factory’s suggestion of ‘Flushing’ the engine with a couple of litres of oil. While it’s in the shop get them to grease/replace the swingarm bearings and shock linkage too. It’ll need it.
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Greetings from finland.
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