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 TPS reset question

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lcjohnny
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:42 pm

Why would changing the valve clearance have any effect on the TPS setting?
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:32 pm

beetle wrote:

Which map are you running, and what value are you setting the CO?







Am running your Mistral Map with Zero CO trims.
Think its only fair that I run with that map as its guaranteed original and the bin matches the file name.

Read somewhere that even the fuel can have an effect, am running 98ron E5 the only other option is E10.
Took the bike for a thrash this morning, surging is pretty violent around 40 almost like a bucking bronco, makes me wonder if people looking can see it, its that bad.
My brain has me thinking the entire rev range is a little off.
Prior to cleaning the throttle bodies this was infact the case but since its barely noticeable, could even be imagining it.
Tickover seems to be 1300rpm once engine has been thrashed but its solid and stable and pickup is instant.
Yesterday popped the latest factory version back on, running was rough, surging was decreased and tickover was 3000rpm like it always is.
Put the Mistral map back hence the ride to check.
This whole experience has destroyed my enjoyment of my GRiSO, think have had about a month of pleasurable riding albeit somewhat flat (factory map) with high fuel consumption in just coming up to my first year.


Pete Roper wrote:
Why would changing the valve clearance have any effect on the TPS setting?

Don't know why I wrote that was prob prior to Guzzi diag connecting and reading the bike.
Think already had the ignition on after warm up prior to running guzzi diag.


Last edited by Buellbloke on Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:43 am; edited 3 times in total
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:10 am


Try setting CO to +3.



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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:50 am

Mine has never surged, but i did have s lot of trouble getting the throttled synched at tickover. The following 2 things were the final problems. I hope i am not suggesting anything you have already said

(1) my air box temperature sensor was covered in (and probably insulated by) black oily gunk.

(2) The passages to and from both air bleed sdjuster screws in my throttle bodies were also full of sticky black oily gunk (Left was probably blocked)
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:56 am

lcjohnny wrote:
Mine has never surged, but i did have s lot of trouble getting the throttled synched at tickover. The following 2 things were the final problems. I hope i am not suggesting anything you have already said

(1) my air box temperature sensor was covered in (and probably insulated by) black oily gunk.

(2) The passages to and from both air bleed sdjuster screws in my throttle bodies were also full of sticky black oily gunk (Left was probably blocked)

Checked the temp sensor yesterday was clean as a whistle, sprayed it with electrical spray anyway and dried gently.
Thottle bodies have been stripped and cleaned, air bleeds removed and cleaned but weren't particularly bad.

Am thinking its prob the ECM as it dont like any map you put in it.
The fact the factory map worked but now no longer works and runs at 3000rpm tickover.
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:04 am

beetle wrote:

Try setting CO to +3.




Tried that yesterday bike ran like a dog.
Am thinking ECM is f*cked as it dont like anything I stick on it?
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:48 am


Unlikely to be the ECU.

It's going to be fuel or spark. Quick air temperature sensor test, with the engine cold, check the intake sensor and engine sensor read within a few degrees of each other.

Confirm air pressure reading is close to what your location should be.

Pop the injectors and make sure one isn't leaking, then use the GuzziDiag test to fire them into a container to make sure you get some fuel.

Use the GuzziDiag ignition test to make sure the plugs are firing.

Replace the phase sensor.




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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:35 am


When my ecu tanked Beetles suggestion of disconnecting battery 10min then reconnecting, rebooted it and gave a temporary fix.

Mine kept coming up with an historical oil pressure error Also when the ecu was flakey.
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:22 am

beetle wrote:

Unlikely to be the ECU.

It's going to be fuel or spark. Quick air temperature sensor test, with the engine cold, check the intake sensor and engine sensor read within a few degrees of each other.

Confirm air pressure reading is close to what your location should be.

Pop the injectors and make sure one isn't leaking, then use the GuzziDiag test to fire them into a container to make sure you get some fuel.

Use the GuzziDiag ignition test to make sure the plugs are firing.

Replace the phase sensor.





Silly me after ran the factory map yesterday then re-instated the Mistral map forgot to reset learning parameters.
+3 Co seems to smooth some of the surging, tickover rose a bit, moreso on clutch pull.
Surging is still there just not as demanding.

Will check the above tomorrow morning.
Do I replace the Phase Sensor regardless of a fault with one or all of the above?
Thanx Mark Cool
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:00 am


No, don't replace the phase sensor..yet.

What's idle RPM at +3?



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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:46 am

beetle wrote:

No, don't replace the phase sensor..yet.

What's idle RPM at +3?




Initally 1250ish +/- though not completely certain as when went out noticed a difference in the surging, as needed fuel went back to garage greedily upped it to +4 (Impatient git that I am ) got fuel but found tickover too high about 1400rpm After my run up and quick blast test.
Went back to garage and dropped it to +3. Find my bike prefers temperature around 68 -70 for the Co trim to take, at low 60's it wont take and too high 90's it wont take.
Generally wait around 20 -30 seconds between adjustments to ensure it takes.
Am yet to actually fully test it at +3 though as was around 1400rpm at +4 expect it should be pretty much back to normal.
Getting the temps up around the 90's gives me the definitive tickover assessment plus with clutch pull.
Thought would perform all the tests listed above then take it for another run up and quick blast test.
Which am about to go and perform now.
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:16 am

beetle wrote:

No, don't replace the phase sensor..yet.

What's idle RPM at +3?




Connected software and hardware and for some strange reason TPS wanted to jump between 4.8 and 5.0, eventually settling on 4.8. with nothing running or intervention from me.
Estimated tickover was 1300.
Co +3 Starts at 1300 estimated instantly climbs to 2k hovers there for a bit and settlers down to 1250/1300 but after a short warm up ride and a quick blast climbs to 1500 on the rev counter.
Turn it off and re start a few moments later and its back to 1250/1300rpm. On the lappy it reads 1220 - 1300.
TPS dropped to 4.6. after the short ride and quick blast.
At tickover TPS jumps around between 4.5 - 4.7.

Pressure is within a few MB's, air temp and engine temp are the same about 3 degrees difference.
Not really certain how one goes about the tests.
Went into Actors and ran left and right ignition, it made a sound then clicked stop after it finished.
Attempted removal of injectors but only pulled the hose connector part off.
Was a tad wary about wiggling the injectors free as read horror stories on here about breaking them?
They look like there are metal so should just wiggle free?
Just feels like an O-ring holding it in there as it wiggles about.
Never pulled one out before so a complete newb where thats concerned.

Ok so went back to the injectors, its just an o-ring near the entrance guess was a bit dry so stuck some.
Whole plot is held in place by the bolt through the plastic trim once removed.
Ran the diagnostic on the right side, about 3 or 4 vapor squirts came thru. A miniscule amount of fuel no need for a container.
On the left the clip was partly off the injector.
Ran the test no fuel came thru Shocked removed fuel line was plenty of fuel there.
Swapped injectors same scenario injectors are fine but power to left injector is not there in the test.

Using a teeny tiny smear of rubber grease on the O-rings makes putting things back together sweet, fuel line goes on with a pop otherwise struggle to seat it.

Bike started and ran quieter, smoother even. Took it for a quick spin and the surging is almost gone except for the odd squirt presents intself every now and then.
How come the bike runs yet there is an electrical fault at the left injector and have no error codes, is this Pete's my engine is a glorified pump scenario.
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:14 pm


IIRC, the ECU logs an error for short circuits and open circuit in the injector. It may be attempting to fire, or fires intermittently. If it wasn't firing at all. Your left plug would look like it was fresh out of its packet.

Can you hear any sounds from it when you run the injector test? Check across the injector pins, should be about 15 ohms.






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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:44 pm

beetle wrote:

IIRC, the ECU logs an error for short circuits and open circuit in the injector. It may be attempting to fire, or fires intermittently. If it wasn't firing at all. Your left plug would look like it was fresh out of its packet.

Can you hear any sounds from it when you run the injector test? Check across the injector pins, should be about 15 ohms.



There is no errors logged either on guzzi diag or on my ECU.
It definitely makes the sound like the right one but no fine squirts come out.
Pins you say I should be able to use a multimeter across some pins, though which ones is another matter.
Both of the old plugs looked identical.
So its possible now am getting the odd surge its firing intermittent and random.
Could just be a shitty connection with a bit of luck.
Both my mate and myself were surprised this startup as bike was super smooth and significantly more quiet.
Like just removing and testing had helped it some. Injectors are on opposite sides to where they were.
It ran much better than it has for ages.
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:19 pm


I’d be replacing that injector.



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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:48 pm

beetle wrote:

I’d be replacing that injector.




I swapped the injectors the non functioning one worked on the right side so left it there.
Only the left side fails to work via the test, will try some more tests, clean the pins, test the connection.
Re check for codes after the failed spray test.

Can I assume because the left side is contantly firing that mostly whilst running it fires but occassionally it doesn't hence the surge.

That unless it fires there is no way for fuel to get through?
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:55 pm

beetle wrote:

IIRC, the ECU logs an error for short circuits and open circuit in the injector. It may be attempting to fire, or fires intermittently. If it wasn't firing at all. Your left plug would look like it was fresh out of its packet.

Can you hear any sounds from it when you run the injector test? Check across the injector pins, should be about 15 ohms.







Cleaned the connectors and ran the test multiple times, it refuses to spurt any fuel from the left side.
Injectors are not at fault as use either injector on the right side and both tried on the right side fire.
No errors are logged in either guzzi diag or the ECU via the dash.
Rode bike and its as bad as it ever was all +3 co trims has done is increase the tickover.
Will add rides are random, some short rides can seem good other times they are bad.
Can definitely feel its not actually surging but an intermittent firing fault now we know what is happening.
Its all across the rev range though revving harder seems to make less of it.
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:22 pm


Sorry, I misunderstood.

The ECU fires the injector by grounding it. Check you have a good +12V on one side of the injector connector. IIRC, you'll get 12V briefly when you turn the key on, then nothing until you start the engine.





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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:57 pm

beetle wrote:

Sorry, I misunderstood.

The ECU fires the injector by grounding it. Check you have a good +12V on one side of the injector connector. IIRC, you'll get 12V briefly when you turn the key on, then nothing until you start the engine.






Though getting ahead of myself. Checked the wiring diagramme looks to be a relay for the injectors?
Pissed that when I bought the GRiSO it had that issue from ther begining. could feel it though was masked somewhat by the trims.
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:10 am


Yeah, the secondary injection relay powers both injectors. Not sure of the actual physical arrangement. That's why I suggested checking the volts at the injector connector. Could be a bad connection somewhere and the volts might be too low to actually fire it, but ECU isn't bitching because it may not see an open circuit.



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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:17 am

beetle wrote:

Yeah, the secondary injection relay powers both injectors. Not sure of the actual physical arrangement. That's why I suggested checking the volts at the injector connector. Could be a bad connection somewhere and the volts might be too low to actually fire it, but ECU isn't bitching because it may not see an open circuit.




Probably a dumb question but where is the actual injector relay situated.
The wiring diagramme shows the starter relay and maintainance relays plus the other two on the right side.
Then it shows these other two relays towards the rear on the left side.
Am thinking sides has nothing to do with the diagramme its just using the available space to provide info.
Aside from the four on the right I could find no other relays on my bike whatsover. Embarassed

16.1 ohms on the good side

17.3 ohms on the bad side

Done via guzzi diag test scernario, short of warming the bike then running it on one cylinder there's no way to read a signal.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:30 pm


Measuring the resistance won't help.  Measure the voltage on the injector connector.

The left pin is +ve from the relay.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]




Attach the negative lead of the voltmeter to the battery negative. Do not use the frame. With the positive to the left pin of the injector connector, turn the key on, and you will read a voltage for a few seconds. It should be a good 12V or more.







There's another relay under the rear taillight cowling. I can never remember if it's the primary or secondary relay.




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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:21 am

beetle wrote:

Measure the voltage on the injector connector.

The left pin is +ve from the relay.


There's another relay under the rear taillight cowling. I can never remember if it's the primary or secondary relay.



Cool video thanx for that  Cool

12.25volts on both sides.

I imagine the relay under the tail cowling is the Primary Injector Relay.
The wires on the injectors match the rear most relay of the set of 4 along the right side of the bike. (left most if looking square at them)
This would indicate its the secondary injector relay going by the wiring diagramme.
I swapped it for a new unit as connections were a lttle bit janky.
Going to order a new Primary Relay too as one of the connections where it enters the unit is stained black could be dark green mind  Laughing  
I'd like to say was a definite improvement swapping the seconday relay but as the effect is random all I can say is, it felt a bit better on this particular test ride.
Cleaning the primary injector pins and replacing the secondary made for an unusual startup.
Turned over a few slowish turns and a hiccup before firing.
Like I interupted the ECU's train of thought or maybe was just coincidence.
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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:38 pm


That voltage is good. It might be a case of it drops as things heat up. If the replacement and cleanup of the relays doesn't help, then I'm afraid it's getting into ECU territory. You may need to pull the ECU and measure the resistance between the pins on the injector and ECU connectors. A good check and clean of the ECU pins, and it's ground.



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PostSubject: Re: TPS reset question    TPS reset question  - Page 3 Icon_minitime1Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:18 pm

beetle wrote:

That voltage is good. It might be a case of it drops as things heat up. If the replacement and cleanup of the relays doesn't help, then I'm afraid it's getting into ECU territory. You may need to pull the ECU and measure the resistance between the pins on the injector and ECU connectors. A good check and clean of the ECU pins, and it's ground.




Have already had the ECU off for a basic clean, never touched the ground as although it looked rough was solid. Hope the bolt head dont snap off Rolling Eyes
Manual states ECU doesnt log errors for misfires, only error ever had was an indicator stopped working back when bought it.
Moved some wires and worked and never stopped since. I heard the ECU controls the flashing could be an indicator of something Laughing
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