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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
Montanarolo
FlatTappeter

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PostSubject: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:39 pm

My bike has a scored barrel, so will also need a new piston and rings  Shocked.

This was the report I had yesterday from the Guzzi service agent, when they investigated low compression on the left pot.  I would still be none the wiser had I not asked them at its recent service, about the amount of fresh oil collecting in the airbox drain pipe.  A compression check indicated the left cylinder was 70psi down compared to the right, and a leakdown test showed the crankcase was being pressurised (which might account for the extra oil in the drain pipe).

As I'm not a mechanic, could the compression imbalance have been responsible for extra vibes when accelerating?  This is one of the things I noticed following the tappet conversion done (by a different MG service agent) last year.  It also seemed slightly less eager to rev.  As I said, not being a mechanic I assumed these to be natural characteristics of the roller conversion, and I didn't question them further after the agent could shed no light.  Note, this had been the first tappet conversion done by the agent.

One comment made by the agent following the conversion has always bugged me, and that is when they first started the bike it made a bit of a racket.  Would they have needed to remove the cylinders to do the conversion (using a 'C' kit)?  It's by no means conclusive that they screwed up somewhere, as in spite of everything the bike has still been running remarkably well, but I would be grateful if anyone here can suggest potential causes for the existing cylinder damage.  The bike's not yet done 30k miles.

Still hoping to try a Bettlemap to address low-speed running, once the engine is back to rude health and I've figured out how to pay for this little lot pale.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:43 pm

Sheesh - bad indeed. Sounds like "something" was adrift in the cylinder when it was reassembled. The question is where is it now? This part is important... Ask them if they found anything that would have caused this - unless the previous shaved apes did it in their process, in which case a broken ring, cir-clip from the gudgeon pin, or plain old stupidity may be to blame. Ask questions, lots.

This would certainly contribute to extra vibes - of the wrong sort.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:48 pm

I would suggest that before going any further a bit more investigation would be in order.

Firstly I'd double check the cam timing. Does it 'Go flat' at about 6,000rpm? That's a classic sign. It will also result in weird compression readings on the badly timed cylinder and although it wouldn't explain the leak down it would explain the weird vibes and loss of power throughout the range.

Before shelling out for a new barrel and piston kit, (£287 from TLM. edit I think that's a second hand one!) it would definitely be worth pulling the head or even just looking in through the plug hole with a borescope. I'd pull the head, it's only half an hour and then any scoring would be evident and the valves checked for damage.

Incidentally I have at least two bikes worth of 1200 barrels and pistons in good condition so if you'd be happy with a second handy I can supply for half the cost of a new kit.

Oh, and the barrels don't have to come off during rollerisations unless they didn't unload the cam chain tensioner plunger before unhooking the sprocket so they shouldn't of been able to get *anything* into the bore???

Pete
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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:07 am

Many thanks for your quick responses and suggestions.

I'm guessing they may have already popped the head and found the scoring.  Would it still be possible for them to tell if the cam timing was out?

I was only detecting a very slight loss of revy-ness and gain in vibes, and it still had plenty of go if I dropped down a gear to overtake.  Only very lately did it seem unusually flat when I gassed it, but I had full luggage and was in a high gear at about 75mph and so not near 6000.

Pete, thanks, I may yet come back to you on the subject of s/hand barrel and piston.  Could you give me an idea of the total cost inc. shipping to the UK?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:36 am

If they didn't check it as the cambox was coming off, (If it's off yet?) then likely no. The cam timing marks are linked to TDC and should be checked at disassembly if there is a problem but to me it sounds like they have done a compression and leak down test and that's that so the top end may still be intact.

It may well be bore damage, but without fully exploring you won't know. Indicators show it's probably bore damage, but you don't make a decision until the fat lady sings and that requires taking it to bits and looking. Once the head is off you can see the bore and 99% of the time this sort of damage will be painfully obvious. You can also test the valves for leakage and look for the, (Very unlikely.) signs of gasket blow-by.

I'll look into the shipping costs.

Pete
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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:23 am

The compression and leakdown tests were done on a previous visit. The head is now off, and there is scoring around the whole circumference of the barrel.

It seems the tech was working in a vacuum of information that didn't get passed on by the reception guy Rolling Eyes.  Now that they understand rollerisation was done last year and by someone else they'll check everything thoroughly. I've had no regrets about work they've done previously.

Unfortunately they won't provide a warranty if I want them to use s/hand parts. (Anticipated as much, them being a Guzzi official dealer.)  Not sure how I feel about that, so will have to cogitate on a happy pill.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:12 am

FlatTappeter wrote:

Unfortunately they won't provide a warranty if I want them to use s/hand parts. (Anticipated as much, them being a Guzzi official dealer.)  Not sure how I feel about that, so will have to cogitate on a happy pill.

In my experiences, most shops will evade responsibility anyway when something breaks, claiming it has nothing to do with their work even when its really obvious that its their fault.
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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:24 pm

Sorry, I need to revive an old thread (my thread).....

Unbelievably, the replacement new barrel, piston and rings for my 1200 Sport 8v have still not arrived, and the dealer can't even give me an ETA.  This is really not acceptable as we've been waiting almost four months.  Does anyone know any levers I could pull or buttons to push, to try and help move things along?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:05 pm

Well they're available in the US. AF1 have both sides listed for 7 day delivery for $568.

Sounds to me like you are being arsed about. What side is it you need? As I said I have second handies. Given the absurdity I'd say go to consumer affairs and get the ball rolling with them. I never had to wait more than six weeks for anything and non stock items usually took about three weeks to reach Oz.

Pete
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anguscameron1966
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:55 am

What Pete said ….. when I had a repair "delayed" by no parts available I got onto MG customer services. Within the week they were back to me and the parts were shipped. Could just have been a coincidence but I suspect not.

Cheers,

Angus.
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GuzziSteve
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:34 pm

We have this in USA

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You must have similar in UK, it says customer care up on top right, go to UK site

HERE COMPLAIN & BITCH AT THEM

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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:53 pm

My dealer said at the start that sometimes parts arrive relatively quickly, other times not so....  Maybe, but no excuse for four months, methinks.

Thanks for your support and suggestions, guys. Think I'll go do some complaining!
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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:38 pm

Okay, message sent to MG UK.  Fingers crossed.

Didn't think much of their contact form - rather clunky and last-century if I'm honest Neutral.  Also no auto-acknowledgement email (perhaps I'm being too optimistic...?)
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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:32 am

Still running Mad ....  The latest from the dealer is that a new (2nd one - 1st shipment went "missing") barrel has arrived.

Although the bore diameter is correct, the thickness of the liner is about half that of the old one.  (Looks like a different supplier, too.)  They've flagged this back as a concern, and want assurances about its suitability before using it.

One result is that due to the unavoidable "air gap" around the liner, only the dowels/studs would hold the barrel in the correct position, as there is no contact between the protruding liner and the engine block.

Does anyone here know if the old and new barrels are interchangeable in a 2010 engine?

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:16 pm

Yes, it'll work just fine. It's the clamping force that secures the barrel, not the spigot or dowels. Although the dowels do locate their main purpose is to prevent occlusion of the oil galleries by gaskets and help maintain oil tightness.

Pete
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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:23 pm

Thanks for the assurance, Pete. I needed some good news!
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FlatTappeter
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Tue May 14, 2019 8:12 am

Finally the Guzzi has returned from the repairer (after seven months!), and performance is definitely more 'willing' than when I last rode it - which stands to reason if static compression was down 70psi on one pot.  So it's got its mojo back Thumbs Up.  Taking it easy now, while "running in"....

Well, it would be running in, if the battery wasn't completely dead Sad.  It's happened once before, and I may need to ask you learned gentlemen for more advice.  Will start a new thread, if I can't find it covered already.
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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Tue May 14, 2019 12:33 pm

Batteries on these bikes like to be topped up every 14 - 21 days. The security system and other bits put a drain on the battery. After 7 months I wouldn’t hold out much hope but a quick test will confirm if it has any life left.
Your local Halfords can supply the correct yuasa part and they often offer a price match.
(Halfords price £92 Gosport can have one in for Friday 17th)
Too late now but langcourt would be able to recover the damaged cylinder.
If you can retrieve it from the dealer you may be able to repair and sell to pull back some funds.
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Tue May 14, 2019 1:06 pm

Maintenance trickle is the best for conventional battery...........Mine had a new Yuasa in August 2013 (service record says) ; I bought it April 2014 & same battery still running perfectly. I fitted charger point (linked in through Fuzeblock) and tender it on an optimate 6 whenever it is in my garage.
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FlatTappeter
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Tue May 14, 2019 2:38 pm

The bike came back from the repairer with a brand new (or so they told me) Yuasa, as they confessed to killing the previous Motobatt - by not keeping it charged, surprise, surprise - which had been lasting very well as a replacement.

This is the second time in 12 months the battery has mysteriously died inside a few days.  The first time was with the Motobatt, which recovered just enough by itself to be seen by my maintenance charger (CTEK MXS 3.8 ).  This new Yuasa never got itself back above 2V, so I've had to "fool" the charger by connecting a second, good battery in parallel for a short period, until the Yuasa's voltage was high enough for the charger to recognise.  It's been charging on its own now for about 6 hours, and I'm hoping it's not been too badly weakened.

I'm beginning to wonder if this issue is water-related, as before, like this time, I seem to recall washing the bike only a few days earlier, following a day-long ride in the dry.  The bike wasn't showing any obvious signs of a weak battery.  I've seen mentions in other threads, of problems with water getting into the speed sensor.  Does this sound like it could be the same?

Thanks for the tip about Langcourt, eeyore.  I do have the old cylinder (and piston), as I asked to see it - more out of curiosity than anything else.  There is some light scoring up and down the bore, and also quite a bit of what looks like diagonal sanding marks, but still no explanation of how it could have got there.  Would be great if I could get back something of the best part of the £2K spent!
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Diablo Loco
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Tue May 14, 2019 3:17 pm

If the battery was a lithium, sometimes they just fail. Working fine, no change in cranking speed. Turn the thing on again and zero. No lights. Nothing. I've had it on a battery less than a year old on a daily runner, an hour into a ride. They are good for the track bike but the commuter gets a lead battery.
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FlatTappeter
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Tue May 14, 2019 3:28 pm

Never used lithium, but had lead/acid AGM fail out of the blue. Optimate lights display "all good"; disconnected Optimate; went to start the bike, and nada. Battery completely O/C: 0mV on the terminals. Which also taught me that Optimates can be very misleading!
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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Tue May 14, 2019 3:57 pm

I work away from home for often extended periods, so on my 1200 Sport, I always pull the two 30A fuses - the green ones- before I head off. Otherwise the battery drains out in about four weeks....
Why?? Never been able to work it out.... clock still ticking?? Wouldn't think it would drain the battery... my watch lasts for years on a button batt... Security system off, so its not that. Outside my pay grade.
Yes, you have to reset the clock (which puts 'pushes' on the set button, reducing? its life...) and the trip meter resets to zero. But for me, thats a better option than leaving it on a trickle charger for extended times.
Electricity - its all about the Blue Smoke. If that gets out, it won't work anymore Razz

Congrats on finally getting your bike back, and yes, do get that BeetleMap® installed as soon as you can. It'll make a good bike better!
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FlatTappeter
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Wed May 15, 2019 2:58 am

bahamazoo wrote:
...I always pull the two 30A fuses - the green ones- before I head off. Otherwise the battery drains out in about four weeks
I used to do the same, but since one of the contacts broke in my accessory fuse holder, due I assume to repeated removals/insertions and a pain to fix,  I now keep all fuses in place and the battery on maintenance charge if I'm not using the bike for more than a week.
bahamazoo wrote:
...and yes, do get that BeetleMap® installed as soon as you can. It'll make a good bike better!
I still plan to, but finding and fixing this battery drain is my priority.  Did the BeetleMap improve tractability below 2500rpm, so that having to move with slow traffic is less of a jerky affair and constantly having to shift gears?  (Normally I filter between queues whenever I can, but sometimes you just can't avoid the slow grind.)
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LBC Tenni
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PostSubject: Re: Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now...   Was planning on doing a Beetlemap, but now... Icon_minitime1Wed May 15, 2019 9:37 am

FlatTappeter wrote:
Did the BeetleMap improve tractability below 2500rpm, so that having to move with slow traffic is less of a jerky affair and constantly having to shift gears?  (Normally I filter between queues whenever I can, but sometimes you just can't avoid the slow grind.)

The Beetlemap smooths out the low speed jerkiness significantly. I also ride in the urban grind and have to filter. You’ll see a big improvement in this regard.
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