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 Lithium Battery

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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:02 pm

Seems like my Yuasa is already on its way out after a mere 2 years service. Since a month or so it can't hold its charge well, and I need to put it on the charger every 3 days or so or it won't have enough juice to crank. So I'm going to make the investment and go for a fancy LiFoPoFF4Osomething - I'm just going to call it Lithium - battery. So I'm orientating myself to whats available, as the brands vary somewhat between continents.
Here in the Netherlands its mostly 2 brand options, Shido and JMT, which I've been told are actually from the same chinese factory, both brands are as far as I know actually used as OEM batteries, with JMT being in some KTM bikes at least. So I have faith they are decent brands.  Anyway are there any experiences here with Lithium batteries in our GRiSO? As in do they actually work well with the rather heavy startermotor? Is it advisable to go for a certain minimum amount of Ah capacity & CCA above and beyond what is recommended?

For example the direct replacement for the Yuasa YTX20CH-BS is the JMT YTX20CH-FP. This JMT battery has 360 CCA vs the Yuasa's 270, which seems great, but has only 6Ah capacity vs the Yuasa's 18Ah, which seems less great. Is it advisable to go with a stronger Lithium battery than the recommended replacement or is that just fine?

Also I'm reading conflicting stories about their behaviour during periods of cold. These days the Netherlands are turning into a tropical paradise with winter temperatures not going below 5 degrees Celcius, but in the past we had some periods of cold which may happen again. Now some sources say these lithium batteries have a super low self discharge, even during the winter, they just need to 'heat up' when its cold by running the lights for 2 minutes. However other sources say the self discharge rate for Lithium batteries is much higher than Lead batteries during periods of cold, making them unsuitable for winter riders. Which of the two is it?


ps. I did some tests on my battery with my multimeter in series with the negative lead & battery pole. After the initial connection which activates something whirring in the bike for some reason drawing about 120mA for a short while, it then showed an amp drain of 3.8mA which oddly peaks every couple of seconds to 7mA (the flickering immobilizer light perhaps?). Are these in any way normal values?

Also, what is the expected amp drain with the key (and thus lights) on? Is it higher than 5A? (I'm asking because that is the highest my cheap multimeter can take)
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:34 pm

Timothy, I can't answer all of your questions, posed above. However I can comment on the battery choice.

The LiFePO4 battery is most excellent in any modern Guzzi. For starters, any battery in a bike is known as a "powersports battery". What this means is that it is designed to start you bike. Period.

Once running the alternator provides more than enough power to run your bike and to recharge your battery. I have a 12AH Lithium in my Sport, instead of the original 20AH Lead Acid device. Still I have more CCAs than the original battery, so that is not an issue. it is also physically smaller (height-wise), which means you can store stuff (ok only small things) underneath it. And being around 20% of the original weight you are in front.

There are two caveats:
- Never (and I mean NEVER) use a charger with a de-sulphurising circuit in it (see opti-mate as an example) - this will kill any Lithium battery very quickly. Call it unrecoverable, and money poorly spent; And
- Never completely flatten the charge in it - it may be recoverable, but maybe not;

To fully charge Li battery requires 14.2 Volts, or very close to that. You need to make sure your connectors are all good and making proper contact.

One of the good things about Li batteries is that they have a -ve (negative) temperature co-efficient, unlike Lead Acid batteries which have a +ve temp co-efficient. what this means is that as you Li battery heats up, MORE power is available next start. This is not infinite though, and if you bike is not starting but cranking over well, it's better to find out what the problem is, before you kill your battery. On a lead acid, your first start is the best start you will get from it.

Li batteries also work very well in cold weather. Look on YouTube for videos on LiFePO4 batteries.

A Li battery should hold it's charge for up to a year, and should give you up to 10 years of trouble free service, if the above points are noted.

Hope this helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:29 pm

If you want to measure 10 Amps or more first of all find a load that you can measure with the meter you have, for example a 40 Watt headlamp bulb will read about 3.3 Amps.
Get a few feet of 10 Amp wire and wire it in series with the lamp then verify its running steady at some current value for example 3 Amps.

Now take a knife and bare two spots on the wire a few inches from each end so now you have your length of wire flowing 3 Amps with two bare spots. Take your cheap multimeter and turn it to the millivolt range then touch it on the two bare spots, You will see a millivolt reading proportional to the current x the distance between the bare spots.
All you have to do now is scale your shunt suppose it measured 12 millivolts, you want it to read 3 so you divide the distance between bare spots by 4 and make another nick in the insulation. You have a shunt that will give you 1 millivolt per Volt or you might like to make the shunt 10 x as long for 10 millivolts per Volt.
The secret is not to have any joins in your shunt and the current carrying connections must be outside and not connected to the Voltmeter connections.

Its quite easy to make a shunt that will measure the starter motor current
Of course the fatter you make your shunt the longer it has to be to give you the required drop.
For reference
A 16 AWG shunt is ~2.9" between meter connections
A 14 AWG shunt is ~4.5"
A 12 AWG shunt is ~7.7"
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:13 am

Take a look at this:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:31 am

Thanks everyone. Very informative.

Only thing I'm a little worried about is the capacity. 6Ah doesn't seem too great for the direct replacement, vs the 18 of the OEM battery.
With say an average 6mA drain from the ECU that means the battery is drained to below the danger point of 20% in 32 days in ideal conditions. Add in the slight self discharge and non-ideal conditions and its probably more like 25 or so days.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:56 am

I think you've answered your own question.  I certainly agree with your conclusion, and wouldn't consider a lithium battery.  Not until they start behaving, and are a more reasonable price.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:06 pm

I've been using the same  BikeMaster lithium battery for over two years now without any issues. (pt#DLFP20CH-BS) That said, I don't ride in the winter so can't speak to really cold starts, and I always pull the battery out and bring it inside for the winter as I've read extreme cold exposure to these types of batteries can degrade their ability to hold a charge.  They also say the mat thingy on the bottom of the battery is a  "Built-in charge and equalizing protection board, preventing battery from over-charging" which I hope is true because on my Honda 599 I had a lithium battery from a different manufacturer explode because my regulator/rectifier crapped out and over charged the thing.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:19 pm

I have SSB Power Sport in my my Guzzi and Scooters. (Scooter LIon battery almost same price as Yuasa original) but for those in the USA I am reading in a few Duc blogs that people are talking up the “Antigravity Battery Brand”. With only good reports that I have read ,as opposed to Shorai etc.

RevZilla sells them too
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:30 am

motor-timothy wrote:


For example the direct replacement for the Yuasa YTX20CH-BS is the JMT YTX20CH-FP. This JMT battery has 360 CCA vs the Yuasa's 270, which seems great, but has only 6Ah capacity vs the Yuasa's 18Ah, which seems less great. Is it advisable to go with a stronger Lithium battery than the recommended replacement or is that just fine?

I know this is an old post so probably not so relevant to your question any more, however in case others come across this and have the same question all answer this.

Li-Ion batteries have a flat discharge. That means they keep putting out the same amount of power until they go dead. PbEq batteries drop off in the power they put out as they drain. As a result you need more Ah with a PbEq battery than you do with Li-Ion. Many Li-Ion batteries will have 2 Ah ratings one is the PbEq equivalent, the other is the actual. If it only has one it will be the actual. I don't know that this is standard, I would think so but not certain, but the batteries I have looked at the Actual is about 50% of the Equivalent. so your 6Ah is probably about a 12Ah PbEq equivalent.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:46 am

wardest wrote:
I have SSB Power Sport in my my Guzzi and Scooters. (Scooter LIon battery almost same price as Yuasa original) but for those in the USA I am reading in a few Duc blogs that people are talking up the “Antigravity Battery Brand”. With only good reports that I have read ,as opposed to Shorai etc.

RevZilla sells them too
AntiGravity Clicky

The SSB I fitted is a 20 AH battery.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:32 pm

Merl3noir wrote:
motor-timothy wrote:


For example the direct replacement for the Yuasa YTX20CH-BS is the JMT YTX20CH-FP. This JMT battery has 360 CCA vs the Yuasa's 270, which seems great, but has only 6Ah capacity vs the Yuasa's 18Ah, which seems less great. Is it advisable to go with a stronger Lithium battery than the recommended replacement or is that just fine?

I know this is an old post so probably not so relevant to your question any more, however in case others come across this and have the same question all answer this.

Li-Ion batteries have a flat discharge. That means they keep putting out the same amount of power until they go dead. PbEq batteries drop off in the power they put out as they drain. As a result you need more Ah with a PbEq battery than you do with Li-Ion. Many Li-Ion batteries will have 2 Ah ratings one is the PbEq equivalent, the other is the actual. If it only has one it will be the actual. I don't know that this is standard, I would think so but not certain, but the batteries I have looked at the Actual is about 50% of the Equivalent. so your 6Ah is probably about a 12Ah PbEq equivalent.

Yes I've been using a Lithium (well 2 actually, 1 died as it got discharged from parasitic drain while I was hospitalized) for over a year now. Very happy with them, just don't let them go flat because that's expensive. affraid

The reduced capacity is really only an issue when you start it like 10 times back to back (why would you) or when you have a parasitic drain or alarm. Now that the drain on my GRiSO has been fixed I can leave the battery for probably at least a month or two without it going dead.

Contrary to stories on the internet the Lithium also functions perfectly at below zero degrees Celsius. Haven't had to warm it up or anything even at -10.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:41 pm

LiFePO4 (Lithium PowerSports Batteries) are special in that they are designed to start your bike (or whatever). Having a large AH rating is not that important, as once started, the charging system replenishes what has just been consumed in the start. The key number here is the CCA or how much can it deliver when someone presses the starter button. Assuming your bike is in good tune should allow this to happen fairly quickly, so multiple presses of the starter button is not needed. As most of the "used" charge can be restored (re-charged) in a very small amount of time (assuming you have a proper and effective charging system) readying for next time.

Additionally, these batteries have a negative temperature co-efficient. What this means is that that internal resistance lowers as the battery heats up. This delivers more of the good things (CCA) when you don't start the first time - this will not keep going as the battery has only so much charge (AH) available. Most other batteries have a positive temperature co-efficient, which means your first starting attempt is the best shot, subsequent attempts will deliver less and less CCA.

As Timothy says above, LiFePO4 batteries WIL die if you fully discharge them - often they can be resurrected, sometimes not. Caveat Emptor! This can get expensive.

I just replaced my LiFePO4 battery after 8.5 years - I was disappointed that I didn't get the full 10 years - though to be fair I completely flattened it several times over the years for a variety of reasons (one notable occasion was when one of the alternator mounting bolts broke, taking tension off the V-belt and therefore not charging - this is where the larger AH will assist but that also means you might be further from home...). Replaced it with another of the same brand (SSB Powersports) but a different model. I move on, it is a consumable item. I might see if I can expend the original one's life - just out of technical interest.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:18 am

Don't know if it's been mentioned here before but one way to save a fully discharged L'ion is to hook up
your charger with another good battery in parallel for a few seconds. These "smart" chargers won't start to charge if they don't "see" a battery. It would be like hooking a charger to a block of wood. It's worked every time for me.

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:40 am

I am getting 13.8V measured on battery poles, with engine on.
Is that enough to keep a Lithium battery in good health?
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:43 pm

Yep!
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:13 pm

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:
Timothy, I can't answer all of your questions, posed above. However I can comment on the battery choice.

The LiFePO4 battery is most excellent in any modern Guzzi. For starters, any battery in a bike is known as a "powersports battery". What this means is that it is designed to start you bike. Period.

Once running the alternator provides more than enough power to run your bike and to recharge your battery. I have a 12AH Lithium in my Sport, instead of the original 20AH Lead Acid device. Still I have more CCAs than the original battery, so that is not an issue. it is also physically smaller (height-wise), which means you can store stuff (ok only small things) underneath it. And being around 20% of the original weight you are in front.

Hope this helps.

This is helpful I am looking at the relatively new noco lifepo4 batteries - from what you are saying will this battery NLP9 - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - be sufficient for the GRiSO? it says that it is equivalent to 12ah lead acid and has 400cca. Alternatively, they have a nlp14 and nlp20 with 13ah/500amps and 18am/600amps respectively. My preference is to go for the lowest-weight/cheapest model, if it works!

The great thing about these batteries is that they have a built-in battery management system which balance charges the cells and prevents over-discharging so this should negate any of the negatives associated with lithium batteries.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:52 pm

For what it's worth, I've had a couple of these Shorai batteries in the past.  As mentioned above, it requires a special Lithium charger that you can also buy from Shorai.  They do offer a partial warranty in case the battery goes dead and gets fully discharged and is unable to be revived. Sometimes they may even send you a refurbed battery (not sure exactly what that means), but it's a no cost option also.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

On a few very cold mornings, it make click, then slowly wakes up, then starts up the bike.

Weight savings is significant vs. standard battery...
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:55 pm


“Special” lithium charger, eh? Unnecessary. There’s nothing “special” about the charging system in the bike.

Any regular lead acid charger will work, provided it’s not a “smart” charger, or has a desulphating circuit. That’ll kill a lithium battery deader than a very dead thing.




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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:03 pm

delete double posted!


Last edited by littlebuddha on Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:04 pm

PJPR01 wrote:
For what it's worth, I've had a couple of these Shorai batteries in the past.  As mentioned above, it requires a special Lithium charger that you can also buy from Shorai.  They do offer a partial warranty in case the battery goes dead and gets fully discharged and is unable to be revived.  Sometimes they may even send you a refurbed battery (not sure exactly what that means), but it's a no cost option also.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

On a few very cold mornings, it make click, then slowly wakes up, then starts up the bike.

Weight savings is significant vs. standard battery...

Thanks yes I think this is outdated now unless shorai have something new. The noco actually has that battery management system built in - from what I understand it will charge/maintain/balance on its own through the alternator/stator current (as long as you ride the bike). I have a compatible charger from my rc car hobby which I can easily use to top up/tickle charge if needed. My oem battery is not long for this world unfortunately so hoping to pick up one of these during labor day sales here in the US - there are some nice discounts on gear etc. It would be nice to know if I can get away with a smaller battery.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:15 pm

If you scroll to the bottom of the page on the link you will see the dedicated Charger for the battery so it seems to still be used today.  I have a couple of them, one I had bought another was a gift. If an alternative works also, that’s great.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:57 pm

FWIW my original Yuasa is 8yrs old and going strong. It does live in climate control, and I throw the tender on it a couple times during the winter.

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:19 am

sideshowbob wrote:
FWIW my original Yuasa is 8yrs old and going strong. It does live in climate control, and I throw the tender on it a couple times during the winter.

My original Yuasa died a couple weeks ago, at 6 1/2 years. It enjoyed a life of abuse and neglect. I only put a trickle charger on it a few times. I was on a trip when it expired, but there was a motorcycle shop a mile up the road which had an exact replacement in stock.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:26 am

Just ordered an Antigravity Lithium battery from Amazon -360CCA
I have a battery tender JR that’s several years old and not switchable to lithium like the new ones.
Is this going to be usable to charge the Antigravity if it needs it? Lots of conflicting info out there.
Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:41 am

Any charger with an automatic battery recovery mode or other kind of charge boost cannot be used for Lithium. Personally I wouldn't risk it and just buy a lithium specific charger, the optimate one is good, I was able to rescue my fully discharged Lithium battery with it.
I also tried a noko genius first but it wasn't able to recover the battery.
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