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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

Posts : 295
Join date : 2016-12-20

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PostSubject: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:02 pm

Seems like my Yuasa is already on its way out after a mere 2 years service. Since a month or so it can't hold its charge well, and I need to put it on the charger every 3 days or so or it won't have enough juice to crank. So I'm going to make the investment and go for a fancy LiFoPoFF4Osomething - I'm just going to call it Lithium - battery. So I'm orientating myself to whats available, as the brands vary somewhat between continents.
Here in the Netherlands its mostly 2 brand options, Shido and JMT, which I've been told are actually from the same chinese factory, both brands are as far as I know actually used as OEM batteries, with JMT being in some KTM bikes at least. So I have faith they are decent brands.  Anyway are there any experiences here with Lithium batteries in our GRiSO? As in do they actually work well with the rather heavy startermotor? Is it advisable to go for a certain minimum amount of Ah capacity & CCA above and beyond what is recommended?

For example the direct replacement for the Yuasa YTX20CH-BS is the JMT YTX20CH-FP. This JMT battery has 360 CCA vs the Yuasa's 270, which seems great, but has only 6Ah capacity vs the Yuasa's 18Ah, which seems less great. Is it advisable to go with a stronger Lithium battery than the recommended replacement or is that just fine?

Also I'm reading conflicting stories about their behaviour during periods of cold. These days the Netherlands are turning into a tropical paradise with winter temperatures not going below 5 degrees Celcius, but in the past we had some periods of cold which may happen again. Now some sources say these lithium batteries have a super low self discharge, even during the winter, they just need to 'heat up' when its cold by running the lights for 2 minutes. However other sources say the self discharge rate for Lithium batteries is much higher than Lead batteries during periods of cold, making them unsuitable for winter riders. Which of the two is it?


ps. I did some tests on my battery with my multimeter in series with the negative lead & battery pole. After the initial connection which activates something whirring in the bike for some reason drawing about 120mA for a short while, it then showed an amp drain of 3.8mA which oddly peaks every couple of seconds to 7mA (the flickering immobilizer light perhaps?). Are these in any way normal values?

Also, what is the expected amp drain with the key (and thus lights) on? Is it higher than 5A? (I'm asking because that is the highest my cheap multimeter can take)
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

Posts : 3510
Join date : 2014-03-13
Age : 64

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:34 pm

Timothy, I can't answer all of your questions, posed above. However I can comment on the battery choice.

The LiFePO4 battery is most excellent in any modern Guzzi. For starters, any battery in a bike is known as a "powersports battery". What this means is that it is designed to start you bike. Period.

Once running the alternator provides more than enough power to run your bike and to recharge your battery. I have a 12AH Lithium in my Sport, instead of the original 20AH Lead Acid device. Still I have more CCAs than the original battery, so that is not an issue. it is also physically smaller (height-wise), which means you can store stuff (ok only small things) underneath it. And being around 20% of the original weight you are in front.

There are two caveats:
- Never (and I mean NEVER) use a charger with a de-sulphurising circuit in it (see opti-mate as an example) - this will kill any Lithium battery very quickly. Call it unrecoverable, and money poorly spent; And
- Never completely flatten the charge in it - it may be recoverable, but maybe not;

To fully charge Li battery requires 14.2 Volts, or very close to that. You need to make sure your connectors are all good and making proper contact.

One of the good things about Li batteries is that they have a -ve (negative) temperature co-efficient, unlike Lead Acid batteries which have a +ve temp co-efficient. what this means is that as you Li battery heats up, MORE power is available next start. This is not infinite though, and if you bike is not starting but cranking over well, it's better to find out what the problem is, before you kill your battery. On a lead acid, your first start is the best start you will get from it.

Li batteries also work very well in cold weather. Look on YouTube for videos on LiFePO4 batteries.

A Li battery should hold it's charge for up to a year, and should give you up to 10 years of trouble free service, if the above points are noted.

Hope this helps.
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Kiwi_Roy
Biondino
Biondino
Kiwi_Roy

Posts : 243
Join date : 2017-11-09

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:29 pm

If you want to measure 10 Amps or more first of all find a load that you can measure with the meter you have, for example a 40 Watt headlamp bulb will read about 3.3 Amps.
Get a few feet of 10 Amp wire and wire it in series with the lamp then verify its running steady at some current value for example 3 Amps.

Now take a knife and bare two spots on the wire a few inches from each end so now you have your length of wire flowing 3 Amps with two bare spots. Take your cheap multimeter and turn it to the millivolt range then touch it on the two bare spots, You will see a millivolt reading proportional to the current x the distance between the bare spots.
All you have to do now is scale your shunt suppose it measured 12 millivolts, you want it to read 3 so you divide the distance between bare spots by 4 and make another nick in the insulation. You have a shunt that will give you 1 millivolt per Volt or you might like to make the shunt 10 x as long for 10 millivolts per Volt.
The secret is not to have any joins in your shunt and the current carrying connections must be outside and not connected to the Voltmeter connections.

Its quite easy to make a shunt that will measure the starter motor current
Of course the fatter you make your shunt the longer it has to be to give you the required drop.
For reference
A 16 AWG shunt is ~2.9" between meter connections
A 14 AWG shunt is ~4.5"
A 12 AWG shunt is ~7.7"
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avgpetro
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
avgpetro

Posts : 124
Join date : 2016-11-26
Age : 51

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:13 am

Take a look at this:

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motor-timothy
Biondino
Biondino
motor-timothy

Posts : 295
Join date : 2016-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:31 am

Thanks everyone. Very informative.

Only thing I'm a little worried about is the capacity. 6Ah doesn't seem too great for the direct replacement, vs the 18 of the OEM battery.
With say an average 6mA drain from the ECU that means the battery is drained to below the danger point of 20% in 32 days in ideal conditions. Add in the slight self discharge and non-ideal conditions and its probably more like 25 or so days.
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kiwi dave
Biondino
Biondino
kiwi dave

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Join date : 2014-04-23
Age : 71

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:56 am

I think you've answered your own question.  I certainly agree with your conclusion, and wouldn't consider a lithium battery.  Not until they start behaving, and are a more reasonable price.
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DangWangi
GRiSO Capo
GRiSO Capo
DangWangi

Posts : 80
Join date : 2015-12-01
Age : 43

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:06 pm

I've been using the same  BikeMaster lithium battery for over two years now without any issues. (pt#DLFP20CH-BS) That said, I don't ride in the winter so can't speak to really cold starts, and I always pull the battery out and bring it inside for the winter as I've read extreme cold exposure to these types of batteries can degrade their ability to hold a charge.  They also say the mat thingy on the bottom of the battery is a  "Built-in charge and equalizing protection board, preventing battery from over-charging" which I hope is true because on my Honda 599 I had a lithium battery from a different manufacturer explode because my regulator/rectifier crapped out and over charged the thing.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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wardest
Grignapoco
Grignapoco
wardest

Posts : 153
Join date : 2014-04-30
Age : 50

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PostSubject: Re: Lithium Battery   Lithium Battery Icon_minitime1Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:19 pm

I have SSB Power Sport in my my Guzzi and Scooters. (Scooter LIon battery almost same price as Yuasa original) but for those in the USA I am reading in a few Duc blogs that people are talking up the “Antigravity Battery Brand”. With only good reports that I have read ,as opposed to Shorai etc.

RevZilla sells them too
AntiGravity Clicky
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