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 GRiSO will not move an inch in gear

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Rmand
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PostSubject: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:54 am

new member, long time rider

have ~5000Km on my bike and when we had kids 5 years ago, it went to the back of the garage and stayed there till we moved last month.  It hasn't been turned on for a couple of years.

I tried to turn it on yesterday and it simply won't turn over.  As in you put it in 1st, push and let go of the clutch and watch the back wheel skid like someone is standing on the brakes.

The cost of keeping the bike was not being able spend time with it.  Naturally, I'm in a lot of hurt now that I've slotted some time to give it tlc.

Any suggestions of what could cause this and how to remedy it?

Is it possible for the valves to have oil-gunk stuck to the cylinderhead and preventing the cam from rolling?

Thanks in advance.  Happy to see there is a GRiSO community.


-2007 GRiSO 1100 Black (Toronto)
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:07 pm


Best way to check is to remove the spark plugs; open the front rubber & try turning the end of the crank (in neutral !!). Unless you stored it in moist/damp conditions it shouldn't have seized (assuming it wasn't put away broken).
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 pm

BTW also assume it rolls fine in 1st gear with clutch in (ie the rear brake isn't seized) ?
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2highlander
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:58 pm

Wenn trying firing up by pushing use the 2nd gear, 1st gear will probably block the rear wheel!
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Rmand
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:03 am

Thanks for the replies!

I'll try the 2nd gear thing.

It was put away in perfect condition.  Then spent a few years in a detached garage, summer humidity and winter cold.

If it has indeed seized, what's the remedy? Is this something I (average handy person) can do or need to take it to a $$$ mechanic with valve adjustment tools?
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:38 am

Have you tried the starter? the battery might need replacing after all that time.
I would use top gear with the plugs out if you just want to turn it over slowly, it's very difficult to bump start one of these in a low gear, really need a good hill.
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OldMojo
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:10 pm

How feasible is it to bump start one of these anyway, with no power to the fuel pump or EFI?
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moto
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:35 pm

OldMojo wrote:
How feasible is it to bump start one of these anyway, with no power to the fuel pump or EFI?

First things first. I think he first needs to see whether it is seized. As Roy said, a higher gear is what you need to rotate the engine. In 6th gear you should be able to rotate the engine modestly by hauling on the rear wheel by hand, when the wheel is elevated off the floor. (Also removing the spark plugs to keep compression from resisting your effort.)

If you can see even a slight movement of the crank or the flywheel that way it will be time to investigate the battery.

Moto
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Rmand
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:42 pm

Thanks for the suggestions on higher gears.  I tried rolling it 2nd and 3rd today.

It feels like it rolls for about a foot before it skids.  It feels like it moves freely in between that distance and then something blocks the movement.

The battery is looong gone.  I did try the starter boosting from my car, but the starter can't overcome the sticky point either.  didn't want to burn it out.

Once the wheel moves freely, I'll try and start it using the starter as opposed to bump start.

-2007 GRiSO 1100 Black (Toronto)
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moto
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:18 pm

Rmand wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions on higher gears.  I tried rolling it 2nd and 3rd today.

It feels like it rolls for about a foot before it skids.  It feels like it moves freely in between that distance and then something blocks the movement.

The battery is looong gone.  I did try the starter boosting from my car, but the starter can't overcome the sticky point either.  didn't want to burn it out.

Once the wheel moves freely, I'll try and start it using the starter as opposed to bump start.

-2007 GRiSO 1100 Black (Toronto)

It sounds like it's coming up on compression in one of the cylinders. Sixth gear would give more mechanical advantage to you.

So you should remove the spark plugs (if you haven't already done this), put it into sixth gear, and try again.

Hope this helps.
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OldMojo
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:30 pm

You say it ran 2 years ago, so unless your garage is within sight of the ocean, it shouldn't be seized after 2 years of garage storage. At worst, there could be some flash rust on the rings. The valve train should have retained more than enough lubrication to prevent a hard seize there. Get the plugs out, shoot some spray lube in the cylinders and let it sit overnight. Then put a wrench on the crank nut and turn it by hand in neutral.
No need to assume the worst at this point
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:30 pm

OldMojo wrote:
You say it ran 2 years ago, so unless your garage is within sight of the ocean, it shouldn't be seized after 2 years of garage storage. At worst, there could be some flash rust on the rings. The valve train should have retained more than enough lubrication to prevent a hard seize there. Get the plugs out, shoot some spray lube in the cylinders and let it sit overnight. Then put a wrench on the crank nut and turn it by hand in neutral.
No need to assume the worst at this point


I used to bump start a VII Sport and California II which I could do on a flat road, I'm not sure I could do the GRiSO though.

To bump start one of these beasts you need to be very co-ordinated.
In at least third pull back against compression then with the clutch in run as fast as you can.
At the maximum speed leap side saddle onto the seat at the same instant letting out the clutch so you have lots of weight on the rear wheel otherwise it will skid.
If you haven't practised it now is not the time to start.

I suggest when you are back on the road find a nice gentle hill that will get you up to about 10 kph and just try starting the bike due to gravity.

Try charging the battery then discharging it several times, you might be pleasantly surprised they can sometimes come back if they weren't worn out when put away. Don't use a smart charger, use a simple old battery charger or even a 12 Volt Wall Wort rated at 100 mA 12V or more.


Last edited by Kiwi_Roy on Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:36 pm

I used to  - before I added the 'starts interrupts' fix, -bump start my 1200 too often.
and this was usually on long runs just after refuelling, so she was loaded with hard panniers Neutral
second gear was the go...

in this case, gravity is your friend however

but yeah, as said, pull a plug or two and try to turn the crank from the front.
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Rmand
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:53 am

Progress update:

Followed OldMojo, Moto, and Kiwi_Roy's suggestions. Took out the plugs, and turned the crank using the nut in the front.

Almost needed both hands on the wrench. 10-minute workout later, it got a lot smoother (with plugs in) but I have no reference on how freely it should turn between compressions.

Still won't start, though. The starter makes contact and moves crank a tiny bit, then it seems to trip an over-current protection and the dashboard reboots.

Boosted it with a running car, so it's not a battery supply issue.

Did try using wife's Vespa battery. 3 start attempts drained the battery to 25% charge which supports the lots-o-current thing.

What's my next move? Attach a pneumatic driver to the crank nut and go for lunch?

thx
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Stromgriso
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:29 pm

Hi Rmand, Please remember, “Do no harm”. Long time mechanic/ technician here (40+ years). I would not do anything with the starter until you can turn the motor by hand. Since it’s not turning by hand with the plugs out, I’d put a small amount of Marvel mystery oil or similar oil inside the cylinder and let it sit overnight. If it still doesn’t turn, I’d let it sit some more. Be gentle with it and take a measured, incremental approach here. Time, lubrication and patience are your best allies.
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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:33 pm

You need some charge in the battery to bump start. The fuel pump, ignition and injectors need power before they start to play. Is the dash performing the start up sweep?
Is it fitted with an aftermarket alarm/ immobiliser?
If it has the standard exhaust with cat take care when squirting oil down the plug holes.
If the battery has been connected to the bike for a couple of years there is 99.9% chance that it’s dead.
Buy a new battery - personally recommend the factory fit yuasa - check the fluids, even better give them a change. With the plugs out gently turn the engine over at the crank pulley (clockwise only and don’t use excessive force). The cylinder bores are nickasil coated - a very tough material that doesn’t corrode.
Basic checks - fuel delivery, spark etc.
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Red Leader
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:47 am

Rmand,
I hope you are getting further on with this.

I'm just chipping in to re-iterate what Stromgriso mentioned.

Don't do anything until you know the motor is free & turning!!!

Time for the oil to penetrate is what's required, I'm sure.

Re: battery.
Just get a new YUASA as per what MG specify; make sure you prep it as per the YUASA instructions & with care it'll be good for another 5-7 years, easy!

Good luck & let us know how you are getting on.
Cheers
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tvboy
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:46 pm

What Stromgriso said but keep in mind the oil you squirt in may not ever reach the "uphill" side of the piston rings. I suppose you could fill the entire chamber to ensure the whole piston is submerged but I'd defer to Mr. Roper or other knowledgeable persons on that in case there's a problem with that idea. I've seen that done on V-8 car engines. Seems like the principle is the same.
Good luck.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:04 pm

Look, if the pistons are seized in the bores you can't just 'Free them up' and run it, it'll destroy the bores.
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Red Leader
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:09 am

With you Pete,
Bummer!
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Rmand
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:42 am

Thanks folks.

The pistons are definitely not seized. The engine is turning, perhaps not as _free_ turning as it should be.

My worry was that a valve was stuck closed, but I think you guys are right that it's a matter of getting lube back onto the parts.

I'm going to spend some time today and turn the crank nut so the oil pump can do it's thing and report back.

Thanks again for all your help!

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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:35 am

No it's not! A valve sticking closed is close to impossible, the forces exerted by the variety of levers mean that if it was that stuck you'd break a pushrod before anything moved!

Look, unless your bike has basically been submerged I think you may be chasing the wrong rabbit with regards to an engine seizure. Look at the issue holistically rather than fixating on the engine.
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Rmand
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:11 pm

Another update:

I took the spark plugs out and turned the crank using the nut in the front.

What's perplexing is how there is a spot where it is much harder to turn the crank; almost like coming up to compression. But the without the plugs, what would resist the crank?

Once passed the harder to turn spot, it rolls on its own and pretty smoothly.

The starter is still unable to turn the flywheel, but the brown-out reboots happen every other start attempt now. Maybe that's progress?

I'd appreciate any suggestions on what could be resisting the crank; or if that's a normal thing.

cheers,

-a
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Stromgriso
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:46 pm

Listen to Roper-san. Take a step back and go zen with it. I would stop trying to crank it immediately until you understand what’s wrong. There has to be something simple that you’ve overlooked here. Systematic and methodical, brother...
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: GRiSO will not move an inch in gear   GRiSO will not move an inch in gear Icon_minitime1Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:53 pm

There will be 'Tight' spots as you have to overcome the thrust of the valve springs but if it is at the same point on every revolution there is something amiss.

An you get hold of a borescope and have a squizz through the plug 'ole?
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