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 Engine stop to work during a ride

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hezovka
Don Abbondio
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hezovka

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PostSubject: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:20 am

Yesterday, during evening ride at about 50 km/h suddenly from engine came sound similar moving screwdriver through radiator and engine stopped to work. It was close home so neighbor take me home on his trailer. Now trying to find an opened service, as most of them has COVID off days.
Probably not very accurate description, but what problem I should be ready for?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:28 am

No, not a useful description but that is probably language related.

Now to me the noise of a screwdriver through a radiator would mean a hissing noise, like a snake. Is that the noise or is it more of a rattle or a knock?

Try and explain further, get a friend with better English to help if you can, we like to help but we need to know more.
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hezovka
Don Abbondio
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hezovka

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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:52 am

It was like turning ratchet, or tooth from rack system do not fit together but jump over. Similar like when children put a plastic stick to bicycle fork and it rattle when mooving on bicycle.
Cadence of sound slowed down, like engine (bike) was stopping. Sound was not very strong, but unpleasant.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:16 am

I fear you have run a big end. Most likely due to the spacer gasket between the block and the spacer blowing out. Either that or maybe you've dropped a valve. Although I think it more like,y to be a big end.

What year is your bike?
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hezovka
Don Abbondio
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hezovka

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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:36 am

Hmmm, and just eight years old - 2012...
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hezovka
Don Abbondio
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hezovka

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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:16 am

Pete, if you are right that engine is over and I am afraid you are right, what is price of new engine? I have it less then two years and would need to fix it, or forget motorbikes...
There is less then 25000 km on it (if I can trust odometer) and I saw most of yours have much bigger mileage. Did I have change to prevent it? When I was buying my only care was if it is rollerised.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:51 pm

You have my sympathy, the stuff of nightmares if what Pete Roper suspects is correct...Especially with such a low mileage and young bike.
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:38 pm

Before becoming resigned that the engine is blown, I would be scrutinizing all panels & bits on the bike, especially the exhaust system. A fracture on any part can make the item buzz in sync with the throttle.

Just trying to cheer you up. Thumbs Up
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:00 pm

As I suggested the spacer gaskets are a known weak point and one that I suggest addressing on any 8V.

Your description though is not enough to give a truly accurate diagnosis. It could be something simpler.

My first suggestion is drop the oil and the sump and see if there are bits of big end shell in there. Then drop the spacer and check the gasket. Once the spacer is off you can look up at the connecting rods and grab hold of them and see if they move. A small amount of fore and aft movement on the crankpin is normal but if the rod can move up or down or side to side in relation to the pin then the bearings are shot. You may well be able to see the rods are discoloured by heat or slivers of bearing shell poking out between the rods or between the rod and crank web.
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Kel
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:51 pm

Would you typically get an oil light for bearing failure?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:14 pm

Depends. If the Los of pressure is sudden the light may not have time to come on before the damage is done.
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marcdavo
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:32 pm

So Pete, just to confirm. You say ALL 8v motors are subject to this gasket failure ? Even 2017 GRiSO ?
Is there a better or upgraded gasket available and where can it be sourced?
I hope for hezovkas' sake that is not his problem pale
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:34 pm

The problem with the gasket only seems to affect the 8V's even though the 1100 and 1200 2V CARC motors use exactly the same gasket. The spacer design is slightly different though. Having said that I think Tony's 2V sport may of suffered a blow out but it's not as frequent on the earlier bikes.

As to which 1200 8V's are prone to failure let me be quite specific.

Firstly it affects ALL 1200 8V models of ALL years EXCEPT Grisos of MY 2015 and on. The reason these last Grisos are unaffected is because they use the 'One Piece' sump of the Cali 1400 and different internal plumbing for the oil filter seat, lubrication pick-up and OPRV etc. Why the last two years of GRiSO production got this update and the other models did not I have absolutely no idea!

This issue does NOT raise its ugly head on EVERY motor but over the years, and with increasing frequency as mileages rise we are seeing it occurring more often. It's for this reason that when we are rollerising a bike we always insist on dropping the sump and spacer not only to clean out any dead DLC and shite from failed tappets but also to replace the poxy *Thin* spacer gasket with the fat, juicy, delicious and far more robust and 'Squishable' aftermarket gasket! It adds about an hour and a bit to the job but we have yet to see one of these gaskets tear, blow out or in any other way fail.

There are few tell tales that the gasket has blown out, at least at first, and of course it will depend on how much of the gasket has escaped as to how much oil will be lost and oil viscosity loss due to heat will also play a part in what happens when.

When cold the oil will be thicker and 8V's as we know run ridiculously cool due to the lack of a thermostat in the cooling circuit. Therefore less pressure will be lost through any orifice left by the departing gasket. The problem is that in the cooler months, if only a smallish bit of gasket is missing, oil pressure may not be compromised enough to cause boundary lubrication in bearings. As the ambient temperatures rise though the oil temperature and viscosity will fall, the oil, being 'Thinner' well flow more readily through the 'Hole' and less, at lower pressure, will end up going where it is needed and eventually a point is reached where the oil in the bearings becomes insufficient to wedge and you get the dreaded 'Dogga-Dogga' noise. Exit big ends stage left! It's exactly this that makes me fear for our Slovakian friend's motor as spring will be in the air in Europe.

Symptoms that are detectable early of incipient disaster are usually associated with rattling cam chains, especially in hot weather or when sitting idling in traffic with little cooling air flow. If the oil gets very hot and thin and not enough is getting delivered one of the first things to happen will be the cam chain tensioner plungers will become starved of oil and collapse. When this happens the chain can overcome the weak tension of the plunger spring in the tensioner and the chain starts flapping about like a landed fish making all sorts of ungodly noises. Blipping the throttle may, or may not, quieted it down briefly and due to their location this tends to happen on the right hand cylinder before the left.

You may also, in hot weather, get the 'Oil Can' icon displayed on the dash and sometimes the big 'SERVICE' warning at the bottom where the odometer display is. Sadly, after it's made the 'Dogga-Dogga' noise there is no way of saving it. Whether the crank and rods can be salvaged will very much depend on how much damage has occurred and to find that out you have to pull the motor to essentially the last nut and bolt.

Do remember though for Hezovka's sake that we haven't yet ascertained what had happened to his bike and while his description is ominous there is no concrete evidence yet that it has comprehensively shat the bed.
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marcdavo
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:33 am

Thanks for the info Pete. And Hezovka, fingers crossed for you mate.
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motor-timothy
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:24 am

Pete Roper wrote:

Symptoms that are detectable early of incipient disaster are usually associated with rattling cam chains

What is this sound like? Is it like really obvious can't miss it loud or more subtle like in this Breva video : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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guzziownr
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:27 am

Hi Pete, is this the correct gasket?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:27 am

motor-timothy wrote:
Pete Roper wrote:

Symptoms that are detectable early of incipient disaster are usually associated with rattling cam chains

What is this sound like? Is it like really obvious can't miss it loud or more subtle like in this Breva video : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Umm.....that's a smallblock, it doesn't use secondary timing chains or hydraulic tensioner so no.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:27 am

guzziownr wrote:
Hi Pete, is this the correct gasket?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Yes.
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guzziownr
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:12 pm

Thanks Pete, I will replace mine ASAP.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:30 am

Any updates on this?
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hezovka
Don Abbondio
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hezovka

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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:02 am

I've evaluated my technical skills with respect to situation oil will be full of metal parts. To upload fuel maps, I am fine with. But to check and maintain swing arm, it is somewhere at limit of my manual capability. So I yesterday transport GRiSO to service and now with beating heart waiting for result. When know something more I will post it.
Time frame? They have priority on set up new motorcycles, as this week government permit selling of vehicles again.
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Steak
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Mon May 04, 2020 2:04 pm

Good luck hezovka.

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2012 MOTO GUZZI GRiSO 1200SE

2013 MOTO GUZZI STELVIO 1200NTX - Orange Blossom Special
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hezovka
Don Abbondio
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hezovka

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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Mon May 18, 2020 1:30 pm

So first information from garage has confirmed Pete's suspicion: one cylinder without any compression, but in oil sump there were no metal parts. I was asked to come next day, till when should be done diagnostic and they should inform me about reparation costs.
It was nice night I spend with calculation of my budget. Then bigger was my surprise next day, when technician informed me, it is repaired: tensioner of camshaft chain was loosened and I must have very good luck as piston did not contacted valves. I do not know, if I can believe such constellation, maybe due to 2.5 - 3 thousand rpm at time of problem?
I was asked to wait one day, as it was no time to test it. Then it was raining, so today I was to pick it up. It costs new oil, filter and some hours of work. It run nice, regularly, better then before. Just I am doubting, if it is really over.

I would need stay some days without riding, as son of our friend was died at Sunday on motorbike after he hit lamppost and my wife is bit hysterics now.
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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Mon May 18, 2020 2:23 pm


Peter,

That great news about your engine -- congratulations! cheers -- was certainly tempered by that tragic news of that death of a friend's son. Condolences.

I am, however, ordering one of those "new & improved" sump gaskets as soon as I finish this post.

Best to you,

Bill
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Engine stop to work during a ride   Engine stop to work during a ride Icon_minitime1Mon May 18, 2020 2:45 pm

hezovka wrote:
So first information from garage has confirmed Pete's suspicion: one cylinder without any compression, but in oil sump there were no metal parts. I was asked to come next day, till when should be done diagnostic and they should inform me about reparation costs.
It was nice night I spend with calculation of my budget. Then bigger was my surprise next day, when technician informed me, it is repaired: tensioner of camshaft chain was loosened and I must have very good luck as piston did not contacted valves. I do not know, if I can believe such constellation, maybe due to 2.5 - 3 thousand rpm at time of problem?
I was asked to wait one day, as it was no time to test it. Then it was raining, so today I was to pick it up.  It costs new oil, filter and some hours of work. It run nice, regularly, better then before. Just I am doubting, if it is really over.  

I would need stay some days without riding, as son of our friend was died at Sunday on motorbike after he hit lamppost and my wife is bit hysterics now.

While this is excellent news I am somewhat confused as to how an engine that had zero compression one minute can have something done to its cam chain tensioner and be miraculously fixed but as long as it works. Hooray, cheers !

If the tensioner isn't working though it may recur and as such my first port of call would be that wretched spacer gasket we've been discussing. I'd ask the shop to replace it prophylactically if you can't do it yourself. Cheap insurance.

Condolences on the death of your friend's son.
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