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 Reluctant Starter Motor

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BowraBoy
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BowraBoy

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Join date : 2019-07-28

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PostSubject: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:14 pm

Hi Gang,

My 2009 GRiSO 8V has recently passed the 80,000km mark with me on board - many thinks to Pete Roper for fixing up a number of travestiers committed by a local shaved ape who showed that he didn't know as much about Guzzis as he reckoned he did.

Of late it can take as much as 6 attempts of turning the ignition key/pressing the starter button before it actually activates the starter motor. At all times there is an audible electrical-sounding 'click' when I press the starter button but that is all.

I always have my bike on an Oxford trickle charger which is telling me that my battery is 'Fully charged' and 'Strong'. Nonetheless I will take it into my friendly auto electrician, who is a fellow Ulyssian, to have the battery's health reviewed.

For Pete Roper I have not yet installed the relay set I got from you which takes power on a more direct route to the starter motor. Would that help?

If the battery is okay I thought the next step would be to check the connection between the starter button and the starter motor. In the worst case the starter motor may need replacing.

Has anybody else ever had similar issues? Is it possible toi have a starter motor 'cleaned/ reconditioned' ? Is it something I could do myself?

Thanks in anticipation of some useful suggestions.

Cheers,

Todd
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
Don Abbondio
Oz1200Guzzi

Posts : 4466
Join date : 2014-03-13
Age : 65

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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:57 pm

Hi Todd, "startus interruptus" sounds like, as well as a possible failing battery (funny they don't last forever). Install the kit, now, or have it installed, now.

Starter motor will not need replacing. Get you battery checked ASAP. If dead/dying, replace it.

If Pat was around, I'm sure he would assist - but he has absconded northward, doing a lap of the map.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:59 pm

That's classic "Startus Interruptus".

Install the kit you got from Pete.




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BowraBoy
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:29 am

Thanks guys,

I'll get the battery checked/replaced AND Pete's kit installed.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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Oz1200Guzzi

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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:21 pm

Do the kit first, Todd.

lcjohnny and BowraBoy like this post

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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:19 am

Does the kit replace the woefully undersize wire from Relays to starter solenoid?
It should be a #16 or metric equivalent 1.5
Once again yesterday I dropped my GRiSO at zero speed, coming out of the driveway an unexpected vehicle coming up the hill so I had to stop my left leg is too short, it wouldn't crank (Tipover switch I believe) so I removed the seat and made use of the emergency bare spot on the wire, fired up straight away.
I don't know how long it takes to reset from a tip over but it seems to take forever, both times it fired up by touching the solenoid wire onto the battery.
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BowraBoy
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:15 pm

Hi Roy,

The kit is one provided by Pete Roper so I have no doubt it will do the trick. Yes it takes a wee while for the tipover switch to cut out but remember that whenever we drop a bike at low/zero speed it is both annoying and embarrassing (particularly if, as in my case, it is due to duck's disease (arse too close to the ground) and the time before we are ready to go again seems to take forever.

Hope you're enjoying Canada. I lived for 14 mos in New Brunswick when I was in the Aust Army and I loved Canada.
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Guzzinord
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Guzzinord

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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:56 am

Hi to all, when the problem occurred to my bike, i did this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
After that, i replaced the battery with a motobatt, worked well for few monthes and then startus interaptus came back.
Three years ago i replaced the motobatt for an oem yuasa made in usa. Since then, never used baypass button again 😉
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BowraBoy
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:27 am

My auto electrician mate checked my 4yo battery - producing 1/3 of expected power, so a new battery went in. Still reluctant to start so in went the relay from ignition to solenoid. Better, but still a tad reluctant to start unless solenoid given a love tap with something - I figured that would do until fixed properly. Rang Mario from Thunderbikes Perth on Friday, new Valeo starter motor/ solenoid arrived today (Monday) on the east coast - impressive. Installed starter motor this afternoon, used an axle grinder to reshape the back portion of the plastic guard to fit (as clued in by Mario) and then (because battery had been disconnected) reset the SERVICE warning. Starts first time every time - this may help with Gertie's reluctance to start when <15 degrees ambient temperature (has needed throttle maintained slightly open to start at those temperatures).
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GHIGGS
Montanarolo
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Join date : 2020-07-25

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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:07 pm

Hi Kiwi Roy is it this kits? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ? I will order it. This is happening to me when bike is hot.
thanks!
Gord,
I'm in Victoria, insurance is about to expire in a few weeks we should touch base in the spring for a ride?
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:23 pm

That looks like the kit many owners use, I have never seen one personally, I just fix it.
Wait, I see you have an 1100, you shouldn't need a kit for that bike but change out the wire from the relay to the solenoid for something a size or two larger.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
See the wire from item 3 terminal 5 to the solenoid (24) it's too small, the solenoid would like to draw 40 - 50 Amps inrush current.

Get a length 16 gauge or 1.5mm2 with a lug on the end, attach it to the solenoid spade terminal.
With the bike in neutral and key Off touch the other end on the battery positive, that should make it crank, this will show you how it should crank, we are doing it with the key Off so you can give it a good workout without it starting.
if it doesn't crank connect your Voltmeter across the battery and see what it reads before and while the starter is trying to crank, post it back here. if the battery is any good it should be able to hold 10 Volts while cranking over.
Once you have done the test snip the wire a couple of inches from the relay and crimp the new wire to it.

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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:15 pm

Here's another way to boost the starter without chopping the loom around.
This will give the solenoid all the current it needs to do the hard work.
Note: I pick up 12 Volts at the solenoid post, theres already too many wires at the battery.
I show an old Bosch relay but any type will do, it just has to be rated for an inrush current of 50 Amps or more. The Bosch also has a handy mounting tab.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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JohnA
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:02 am

GHiggs,
The kit you show is the one many of us use to fix startus interruptus. I have a 2014. Been using it for 5 years.
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GHIGGS
Montanarolo
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GHIGGS

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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:10 pm

john A, good to know, will proceed with order. I attempted to perform my own wire oversizing to the starter relay but none of the wire colors lined up on the relay connectors, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] so at least this kit will give me some step by step instructions and all the parts. Also I know I have to clean, tighten, apply antioxidant like silicone or corrosion X. Battery is new, one previous no start was caused by loose battery connection. My current no startus is when I am running bike to warm it up normal operating temp d60 eg c, to set up CO balance no startus until the following morning. Also I will be following that service procedure on starter disassembly grease reassembly.
thanks!!
Gordon
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:11 am

I don't think the MPH kit will do much for your 1100, it already has a direct feed to the start relay from the battery via fuse C
It won't do any harm though the existing wire from fuse C to the relay base is probably way undersize as well.
Change out the wire from relay to the solenoid the MPH kit doesn't address that the existing wimpy little wire will drop about 1.5 Volts while the solenoid is in motion.
The starter will engage twice as fast with a decent size wire.
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JohnA
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:58 am

Gordon,
Kiwi Roy is “the man” when it comes to electrics and he also has an 1100. Mine is a 2014 -1200.
MPH advertises their “fix” to fix our bikes and doesn’t specify years and engine size. So at least Mike Haven of MPH thinks it will work. Mike is along time Guzzi guy and incredible mechanic.The instructions that come along kinda help but are generic and not specific to the GRiSO. If I felt capable of doing what Roy suggests, I’d be doing that. If not, you can give the kit a go. You’ll have to figure out which relay to connect the kit to. I believe it was the second one back from the front for me. I had to mostly remove the side body work to be able to get to the relay. You’ll need to connect one wire to the positive battery terminal. And, at the advice of Kiwi Roy and Pete Roper, I replaced the 15 amp fuse that is part of the kit with a 20amp. The 15 would blow periodically. We can provide more help if you need it once you get it.
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GHIGGS
Montanarolo
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:45 am

Hi John, kiwiroy I will follow kiwiroy suggestion of upgrading red/yellow wire size to 12AWG from solenoid to relay, adding a lug in place of the female spade. I got spooked when wire colors didn't line up with first position relay. And will look farther to the left.. I asked MPH if his kit will work with my 07 1100 he never answered. Will decide when kit arrives if I will install it fixes a part of the wiring that is not broken.
For relay location I was following this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] nothing lined up. but now I just noticed the year of his bike he has the newer wiring schematic.
Starter has been greased. The ground lug tight, it was loose and a possible contributing factor with the hot no start.

will report back
thanks for all your help!!!!
thanks everyone!!
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GHIGGS
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:08 am

just to be 100 % clear this increase of wire size to 12AWG will happen between starter solenoid trigger spade and starter relay #3, position 5.
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JohnA
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:20 am

If you contact Mike Haven don’t reply to the website. Write to:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] or [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:29 am

I sent an e-mail to Mike Haven telling him about the wimpy solenoid wire and suggested he might include that, I thanked him for producing the kit that has saved many a Guzzi owner, he figures that the kit will still fix most bikes without upgrading the wire.
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JohnA
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PostSubject: Re: Reluctant Starter Motor   Reluctant Starter Motor Icon_minitime1Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:51 am

That’s great Roy. Thanks for helping many of us too.
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