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 '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?

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whyrichard
Carlotto
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PostSubject: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:29 pm

Hello,

I have just woken up my friends guzzi after being in storage for a few years. I love the bike, but the clutch seems a bit strange...

Supposedly when my friend did his last service, the mechanic said he needs a new clutch... at 4000 Miles?! When I rode the thing from the storage unit to my house, the clutch felt strange. I pull it in, drop the bike into gear, and I pull the lever out gradually... but not until the last 10% of lever release does the bike engage the gear.

Is this an adjustment to the clutch hydraulic line, or does the clutch actually need replacing?




thanks,
Richard
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antmanbee
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:06 pm

My 1100 GRiSO with about the same ammout of miles also engages with the lever almost all the way out.
It does not slip. I think it is fine and I just have to get used to it after switching from one of my other bikes.
Not sure if this applies to the 1200 GRiSO's.
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whyrichard
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:51 pm

Hey,

is there a way to adjust something so that the clutch pull is more... linear?

thanks,
r
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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:24 pm

The clutch plate and cover on these bikes are huge by motorcycle standards - similar in dimensions to clutches fitted on small to medium sized European cars. You would have to try very hard to finish the friction material off in 40,000 miles and expect some are over 140k without problem.

Have you tried the easy to do jobs like fresh fluid and checking master cylinder pushrod etc?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:01 pm

It doesn't need a new clutch at 4,000 unless it's been burnt out by poor adjustment.

It sounds to me as if the plunger adjustment is wrong. I'll talk you through that in a few hours, gotta go to work now.

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whyrichard
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:36 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
It doesn't need a new clutch at 4,000 unless it's been burnt out by poor adjustment.

It sounds to me as if the plunger adjustment is wrong. I'll talk you through that in a few hours, gotta go to work now.

I would love some guidance on this, thank you so much!
r.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:35 pm

Right.

So I saw your problems being discussed over on WG so I think I've got the baseline story but correct me if I'm wrong.

The bike does, or did, belong to a mate and it's been in storage for three years or so with no fuel or, (For some reason? scratch ) oil. You've stuck oil in it, (If you have filled it above mid way between the 'Add' and 'Full' marks? Drain some out.) and it runs but you are worried because the clutch engages and disengages at the very beginning of the lever travel and a 'Mechanic' has told you it needs a new clutch.

So. First question would be why does he think it needs a new clutch? My guess is because when the bike is good and hot and he gave it a big fistful of throttle it began to slip. Now rather than putting two and two together and thinking "This is a virtually brand new bike. Why is the clutch slipping and what can I change to fix it?" And "What other symptoms are there that something isn't right?" he's just jumped to the conclusion the clutch is fucked.

My first suggestion would be to never go anywhere near this *Mechanic* ever again.

My second suggestion would be that the fact that the clutch is engaging so far out is because it is maladjusted. Yes, your *Mechanic* would probably say "But it's a hydraulic clutch. It is self adjusting." and it is, FOR WEAR But not for ACTIVATION.

If you look at your clutch lever and it's attachment to the master cylinder you will see there is a small, tapered, plunger screwed into a barrel that fits into the clutch lever itself. This plunger goes into the master cylinder and presses on the end of the piston that pressurises the hydraulic system to the slave cylinder on the back of the gearbox that in turn operates the clutch. It is much easier to see it if you remove the clutch lever from the master cylinder.

Now the fact that the clutch is engaging so early in the throw of the lever would indicate that the plunger is protruding too far out of the barrel in the lever. Not only will this mean that the clutch will begin to engage too early but, more importantly, it will mean that the master cylinder piston will not return to the end of its travel when the lever is released. That it can return fully is very important because if it doesn't, even by a tiny amount, it will occlude the priming port for the master cylinder. This port is a tiny hole in the floor of the reservoir which allows the clutch fluid to flow from the reservoir into the hydraulic system to compensate for wear in the clutch but also, and most relevantly in this case, allows expansion caused by heat, of the clutch fluid to be released back into the reservoir. If, as I suspect is the case with your bike, the plunger is preventing the piston fully returning this makes the hydraulic system 'Closed' and as the bike, and the fluid, heat up it's only means of expansion is by pressing out the piston of the slave cylinder. This in turn reduces the clamping force on the clutch and, when sufficient expansion of fluid has occurred the clutch will start to slip making someone ignorant of the laws of physics think that the clutch was buggered!

In fact I'll bet you a bus full of beehives that your strange clutch operation and your 'In need of replacement' clutch can be very easily and cheaply fixed.

First take your now removed lever, (It takes a 10mm spanner and a Flat bladed screwdriver.) and invert it. You will see the little barrel with the tongue on it that operates the clutch switch with the plunger screwed into it. In the barrel, on the flat bit next to the tongue you will see a tiny little grub screw with a allen key hex in it. The key size is tiny, 1.5 or 2mm and the grub screw has to be loosened so make sure you use a good quality, accurately ground, key to loosen, (Not remove!) it.

Once the grub screw has been loosened the plunger, which is threaded into the barrel, needs to be screwed back into the barrel a bit. This is supposed to be done by using a small, flat bladed, screwdriver from the 'Back' of the barrel but this can be difficult because the Brembo ape who assembles the lever assemblies tends to be a bit over-zealous with the Loctite so the best idea is to first heat the barrel with a butane torch until the Loctite softens and then grasp the plunger in a vice and turn the lever and barrel down onto the plunger.

Now the amount it will need to be turned in will depend very much on how maladjusted it is so I would suggest starting out by turning it in a full turn, (360 degrees) then reinstall the lever, no need to put the lock nut on yet, being careful of the clutch switch plunger as you do, and see how it feels. You should be able to feel, and see, just a tiny bit of free movement in the lever/plunger before you feel the pressure increase dramatically as the plunger starts operating the piston of the master cylinder.

If you can't yet feel that tiny bit of movement? Remove the lever and wind the plunger in a bit more. If after that initial 360 degree turn there is a lot of movement before you feel the piston start to move? You've gone too far and you need to wind the plunger back out a bit.

Really it's just trial and error. You may get it bang on first time. You may have to bugger about taking the lever on and off half a dozen times until you get it to the point where you can feel just that millimeter or two of travel before the plunger starts pushing on the piston. Once you think you've got it right, remove the lever one last time and tighten the tiny grub screw to prevent the plunger moving. Reinstall the lever and install the 10mm locknut.

Now start the bike, pull in the clutch and select first gear. If the bike lurches forward or stalls you've wound the plunger into the barrel too far but if you've done it right it will select cleanly, (It will probably still 'Clonk' but it shouldn't lurch forward.) and when you release the clutch the friction point should be a lot closer to the bars than it was.

One final thing. Please do not allow this *Mechanic* to 'Tune' your bike or I can guarantee that you will be needing a new set of throttlebodies for it by the time they have finished.

Oh. And if your oil light is flashing occasionally replace the spacer gasket and oil pressure switch. Both of which are known failure points.

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Robinson_Spike
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:55 pm

Although I don’t carry the same clout as Mr Roper I’d also strongly suggest that your clutch doesn’t need changing. Why? - I’ve just swapped mine at 27000miles because I happened to have the gearbox out and my clutch had been stinking every time I was low speed manoeuvring or stop start in traffic. What I found was the clutch diaphragm spring hadn’t been centralised at the factory and as such was slipping only on 50% of the flywheel. Despite this slipping and stinking for 27k there was still loads of friction plate left and I only changed it because a plate is just £70 when you’ve already got the gearbox out.

As Pete says, check that master cylinder plunger has some clearance, only put 3.5 litres of oil in the engine and just enjoy riding it 👍🏻👍🏻 ...and if you hold the clutch in for 5 seconds or more before dropping it in to 1st gear the 3 shafts inside will have stopped spinning and the clunk will be reduced.



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whyrichard
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:26 pm

... thank you all will do the tweak to the clutch when am feelin brave...


,,. question about the oil level... i know it is a simple task to drain the oil and all but I have hardly any space to do the work myself and so it is difficult to plan even a simple oil swap.

what is your sense? I was told the oil was drained for storage (?!) and so put in 3 Liters of 10w60. I rode it home, the oil light went on a few times when near idle.

Did i over fill it? Is it possible for the guzzi to have 6.5 L of oil in it and run just fine on a 5 mile trip home? Is it .5 L low?

Thanks again,
r.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:07 pm

No, it's not. If you'd put 6.5 litres in it it would of puked about 2 litres into the airbox and probably blown both the rear mainseal and the front crank seal! If it didn't by some miracle it would of been a dead slow, wheezing wreck that smoked like a pig.

The reason to make sure that the oil isn't above half way between the marks on the stick is because Guzzi specify too much. Any more than that and it will just blow it out through the breather system where it will gather in the airbox and foul the stepper motor and throttle bodies.

You need to check your oil level, accurately. If it is over filled, especially if it is grossly over filled? You have to drain some out or you risk serious damage. This isn't a 'Guzzi' thing, it's true of all motors.

The motor has a dipstick. Yes tis a bit difficult to read, especially if the oil is hot, but it's not rocket science. Make sure you wipe it good and dry. Straddle the bike and hold it upright. Insert stick, (Don't screw it in.) remove and check. If the level is way up the stick you have to drain some out. All it requires is a tray and a 17mm spanner. Once you have the oil halfway between the 'Add' and 'Full' marks with the bike upright. Let it sit on it's sidestand and note where it sits on the stick. In future you can check the oil on the sidestand by using that level as indicated on the stick as 'Full'.

Also don't wait to 'Tweak' your clutch until you're feeling brave. Do that and you likely will burn it out and need a new one.

PS. As mentioned above the flickering oil light may be due to either a buggered switch or a torn spacer gasket. Either or both of these can cause this and while the switch being temperamental is a boring nuisance if the gasket has blown out it can have dire consequences if not addressed.

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whyrichard
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:22 am

Hi guys... my progress...

So i drained all of the oil and took out 6L! Good thing....

I put in 3L and went for a spin. The oil light would eventually go off, once the engine was warm, at idle. Seemingly when blipping the throttle from idle. I put in another .25L or so, went out for a spin, and the same thing.

What do you think this is? the sensor needing replacing?

(this thing in super... i love this bike...)

and where can i find the thicker gasket mr Pete? I'll gladly buy one.

Thanks
Richard
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eeyore
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:28 am

As above oil pressure switch or the spacer gasket has failed.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:58 pm

If it had six litres in you are extraordinarily lucky you havent done serious damage. Check and drain the airbox.

To tackle the spacer gasket you'll need some workshop space. It's not something you can do in the street. Gasket is available from MG cycle. Note that it is listed as a sump gasket for big twins and they say it doesn't suit CARC bikes. This is because it doesn't serve as a sump gasket on these models but as a spacer gasket. You will also need a sump gasket.

Until you have got to the bottom of the oil light problem I strongly advise against riding the bike.

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whyrichard
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:09 pm

I can't tell you how grateful I am for the peeps on these boards....


I am looking at the manual and I can't see how to check and drain the airbox...

Also, where can I find the oil pressure switch?

thanks,
r
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whyrichard
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:11 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
If it had six litres in you are extraordinarily lucky you havent done serious damage. Check and drain the airbox.

To tackle the spacer gasket you'll need some workshop space. It's not something you can do in the street. Gasket is available from MG cycle. Note that it is listed as a sump gasket for big twins and they say it doesn't suit CARC bikes. This is because it doesn't serve as a sump gasket on these models but as a spacer gasket. You will also need a sump gasket.

Until you have got to the bottom of the oil light problem I strongly advise against riding the bike.

On MG Cycle, is it the

"BEST QUALITY THICK OIL PAN GASKET MOTO GUZZI BIG TWIN GU14003600"

or the

"OIL PAN GASKET MOST MOTO GUZZI BIG TWINS 1967-2013 GU14003600"

(I can't post links yet here...)

thanks I'll order asap.
r.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:01 pm

This one.

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And you'll need one of these too.

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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:31 pm

Draining the airbox is easy, under your bike is a flexible tube with a plug in the end. Remove plug and let drain into a container - it might be surprising how much comes out!
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whyrichard
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:40 am

Hey, will do a bunch of this soon.... question regarding the clutch, my local mechanic suggested that I should try bleeding the clutch. Could that be it as well?

My apologies for all the questions, each time I do a bit of work it takes a bit of planning... with kids and hardly any space to do the work in the city....

Onwards!
R.
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whyrichard
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:48 am

Another silly question.... where is the sensor for the oil pressure? In between the cylinders? I looked for a pic online and in the manual but couldn’t find anything clear....

Thanks,
R
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:51 am

For me the most difficult / tricky task on the GRiSO is removing the fuel tank. If there’s any suggestions on how you Should get the fuel line off easily then I’m happy to listen in...
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paulbrice
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:09 pm

Hey Spike, there's no easy but a few ways to help it not go badly wrong....my experience includes:
1. Yank off the vent pipes and when you refit the tank put longer ones on - makes refitting much easier having plenty slack in the vent lines.
2. Use the blocks of wood prop up method (lots of stuff about that here somewhere) so the fuel pipe doesn't kink (too much) while you struggle with the easy-fit.
3. Be patient trying to get the 'easy-fit' (sic) off....don't yank it in any plane beyond straight in-line with the elbow.
4. The technique is keep trying to 'push the centre fuel pipe then pull off the easy-fit' until it happens
5. spray easy-fit with wd-40 when you refit (has never made it easier for me to remove but hey ho)

OR disconnect the injectors (electrically connectors & mechanically out the inlets) and just pull the whole lot off....don't even need to remove fuel line !

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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:49 pm

Disconnecting the quick-connect is actually quite easy:
- Disconnect the fuel pump connector
- Try and start your bike (it won't, no fuel pressure, though it might catch a bit)
- Disconnect the quick-connect - it will easily as there is no longer any fuel pressure inside it

As they say in Francais - Voila!

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MalG
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:09 pm

Lubricating the QD connection - I don't like the ordinary WD40 - it dries - but silicone type ones seem to stay wet longer, usually long enough between tank removals. A lanolin based spray seems to work as well.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:15 pm


Lubricant & patience may help, but one must make a sacrifice to the Chicken Of Despair, fast for 12 days,
Recite the Mantra of Quick Disconnect backwards, and finally, insert the rod of supplication. Even then you only have a 15% chance of it coming off.


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PostSubject: Re: '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles?   '13 GRiSO needs new clutch at 4K Miles? Icon_minitime1Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:10 am

...a tweet from a 12mm (I recall) open end spanner between the red elbow and grey fitting whilst pushing the pipe towards the red elbow was what I finished up doing. The good news is it went back on and stayed on 👍🏻
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