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 Cam chain rattle

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Eire1400
Carlotto
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Eire1400

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PostSubject: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:44 am

Afternoon folks.
I want to get to the bottom of a cam chain rattle I've noticed get progressively worse of late.
Just changed oil with fresh 10w60. Checked valves. took out RHS tensioner and cleaned in a bath of petrol.
I've ordered a thicker sump gasket and a replacement lower gasket so will fit these when they arrive.
Anything else I should be doing at this time?
I have an experienced mechanic i can drop to after all this if still there.

Thanks
Shane
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:57 am

What year model and is it rollerised?

If it's a roller engine it will most likely be the spacer gasket.

If it's getting worse don't ride it until it's fixed, you'll torch the big ends.

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Eire1400
Carlotto
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Eire1400

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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:18 pm

Pete Roper wrote:
What year model and is it rollerised?

If it's a roller engine it will most likely be the spacer gasket.

If it's getting worse don't ride it until it's fixed, you'll torch the big ends.

Its a 2010 se (in the lovely green!) that has been rollerised.
Hopefully the spacer will sort it so. Not hearing it all the time, Just now and then!
Thanks will update when i swap.


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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:26 pm

I'll lay odds it'll be a ruptured spacer gasket.
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Oz1200Guzzi
Don Abbondio
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:01 am

I'll bet with Pete! Pretty safe bet I reckon...
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Eire1400
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:04 am

any quick explanation as to how the gasket causes the rattle?
A dummies guide if u like?
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Oz1200Guzzi
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:14 am

a bit blows out, oil sucked in let's in air/oil vapour, bubbles form, hydraulic tensioner can't tension properly/consistently because of bubbles, hence the rattle

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Eire1400
Carlotto
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:48 am

Thanks for that. Just waiting on lower gasket to arrive before i tackle.
Will update when done.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:00 am

I mistakenly thought that the gasket tends to blow out around the pick up gallery. Now I know that that didn't make sense but I looked at the galleries and I thought that the larger gallery had to be the pick up gallery.

Once again from memory, I think when I held the wretched spacer in my hand, I found that the gasket blows out around the delivery gallery.

Now this makes no sense but it's the way it is.

Anyway, the reason why it's a problem is that the gallery in question is after the oil pressure relief valve and therefore the already regulated oil pressure can bleed off through the gap left by the missing part of the gasket meaning that the oil delivered to parts 'Downstream' is not only insufficient in volume but also in pressure!.

What is important for the cam chain tensioner require VOLUME of oil. Bearings rely on PRESSURE which is multiplied by the wedge in the oil film.

Before the big ends, (Always the first to go.) torch themselves pressure has to get really low. Luckily this, in this situation, will have a corresponding lack of volume. The cam chain tensioner plungers which are fed by splash, will cease performing optimally due to this long before the big ends go but the rattle is the engine's way of telling you it's fucked! Ignore it at your peril!

As I said. Don't ride it until it's fixed. You really don't want to run a big end.......



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hezovka
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:17 pm

Today it starts come out rattling sound from right cylinder (would say) head, when changing gears.

Is it cam chain rattle calling to change spacer gasket?

Thank you a lot for your opinion.
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:22 pm

If it hasn't been done it's the first thing I'd check.
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hezovka
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:48 pm

OK, changed. Just waiting for new oil filter, to see result. But during change I've found:
- in filter on picture there were 2 metal pieces [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
- no gaskets from engine to exhaust pipe
- in RH cylinder there are screws (one loose, second broken), LH cylinder nuts to connect to exhaust pipe. Is it normal such combination of screw / nut?
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Pete Roper
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:55 pm

No, the headers are retained by collars secured by two studs. The gaskets may be there, they compress and become virtually invisible but if there was a broken stud or bolt or the clamps were loose there is a good chance they will of burnt away.
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hezovka
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:52 am

OK, I did ordered new exhaust pipe studs, as original were replaced with screws.
Prior filling up new oil let me ask, to be sure, all hex screws on oil sump removed during gasket change should be tighten to 10 Nm?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Want to prevent unwished damage.
Thank you
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ratso88
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PostSubject: Re: Cam chain rattle   Cam chain rattle Icon_minitime1Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:43 pm

It would appear from looking at the torque table that any associated M6 screws are torqued to 10 Nm.

My take would be to do an initial torque of 5 Nm then a final of 10 Nm to get even torque across the sump. I would also do a couple rounds in a cross sequence, opposite sides. I think that's the way I did it when I replaced the sump and spacer gaskets. No leaks yet.

That's just me being overly concerned about tightening across large areas. Who knows what the guy at the engine plant does?
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