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JohnA
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:01 pm

Hi Roy
Which relay do you think passes most power?

I have run a 44/0.30 strand wire from the battery to the relay and another from the starter. There are two 28/0.30 strand pig tails to feed the other two terminals taking orange and yellow wires.

My question is, in your opinion which relay would benefit most from the 44 strand feed and return?
The Start up relay or the Maintenance relay?

Btw the maintenance relay showed most discolouration and oxidisation on the blades so i think that was hotter and therefore taking most watts

Thanks


Last edited by lcjohnny on Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:53 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : cant spell for toffee)
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:37 pm

In theory they both share the load however one relay might have slightly more wire in circuit, I have never seen the way it's physically wired.
The Start relay closes first, followed closely by the maintenance relay.
It's possible for the start relay to drop out if the ECU sees something wrong.
If you take your finger off the start button and the engine continues to crank, that's all the Start relay because the maintenance relay will drop out.
I will attach a sketch I did for a Norge owner.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Either way any one of the relays will take the full current easily, I don't have the specs on hand but the sort of relays are typically rated for 60 - 100 Amps inrush, the cranking current through the relay is around 10 Amps.
When you get it all finished please try starting without the Maintenance relay in place and get back to me. I'm not convinced the Maintenance relay is required once you fix the weak yellow feed, the 1100 GRiSO has only one, it has a direct feed to the start relay similar to what you have just done. The only reason you would need it is if the factory messed with the ECU software to make it drop the start relay out.

I had to look up 44/030, you certainly won't have any problems with that 28/030 or even 14/030 would have been a vast improvement.

You said the maintenance relay pins were more discoloured, is it possible the socket is loose? Perhaps check the tension using a male spade connector to feel the grip.
If it were my bike I would polish the pins with a fine glass paper and then wipe them with some Vaseline, it doesn't make for a better contact, (all grease is non-conductive) but will stop them oxidizing.
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:54 am

Thanks Pete
From your diagram i will run the 44/0.3 to the start up relay and the 28/0.3 to the two pins on the maintenance relay

In answer neither of the sockets were very tight - but they were not at all loose ..

The small relays have a 4=30a rating stamped on them the larger one is hard to find the exact serial number 4RA 940 010-71  but that range are rated 30-40a - pity the wires are not

have sent a sketch of what I can see that matches the wiring diagram by PM as it may be very wrong Very Happy
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:01 pm

I believe the sketch shows the same wiring.
I sent you a PM
Thats an interesting way to show the wiring colours, is it something you have a link to?
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:32 am

Hi Roy and all
I am about to jump into an attempt to fix the Startus Interuptus problem on my 2007  4 valve 1100 GRiSO but I'm having trouble understanding a few things. (Apologies for my ignorance)
Firstly, am I correct in thinking that the start relay is the front one on the right hand side behind the seat panel? On my bike the front relay wires are Orange/yellow stripe; Green/orange stripe; red/black stripe; pink/brown stripe. These colours correspond to the start relay on the 2006 GRiSO 2006 wiring diagram, so looking promising...

At the starter solenoid, the wire on my bike is just black, not orange/yellow stripe as shown on the wiring diagram. Could this be right or just irrelevant?

So, as I understand it, step 1 is to route a new 2.5mm2 wire from the orange/yellow stripe terminal 5 on the start relay direct to the spade connector on the starter motor and tape back and disable the existing wire ends. Is this ok?

Then step 2 involving a direct battery feed via 20amp in line fuse etc is where I'm stumped. Would appreciate any help/step by step guide to this step assuming it is necessary on a 2007 4v.
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:20 pm

First of all let me first be clear on your bike, its a 2 Valve per cylinder 1100?
The 2007 GRiSO I have has only 1 Start relay, no Maintenance Relay
Your Step 1 is correct the existing wire is too small to support the 40 - 50 Amp inrush current the solenoid needs. There are two coils in the solenoid one draws 40 Amps but just for a split second. Instead of changing the wire in the relay base you can just cut it close by and join the larger wire on to the small tail, the other end of the new wire gets a new spade lug of course.

I don't think you need to do step 2 but if you have a voltmeter or test lamp just make sure that terminal 3 or 5 in the relay base is alive with the key OFF.
the 2007 I have already had the direct feed to the relay however you might need to upgrade the wire, a 20 Amp fuse for sure.
I didn't bother upgrading the relay feed wire on my 2007, with just the wire from relay to solenoid the starter engages 3 x as fast as before.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
If you do replace the wire from fuse C to Start Relay terminal 3 don't forget you must also feed the Injection Aux. Relay

This is an alternate way of doing a fix for anyone reluctant to start cutting wires
A new relay is supplied direct from the battery, the relay coil is fed from the original trigger wire.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Note how I have drawn the solenoid with 2 coils, how it is.
The 20 Amp fuse can be fed from the battery post but there are already too many wires there so I show it fed from the large hot terminal at the solenoid.
If the relay is located next to the starter the fuse leads should reach without having to extend them, Dont use a relay base just use spade lugs direct onto the relay pins.


Last edited by Kiwi_Roy on Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:45 am; edited 4 times in total

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Peter-3d
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:11 am

Great advice, Roy, I'll try that and report back. Yes, its a 2 valve per cyl 1100
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Peter-3d
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:24 am

Please to say I’m up and running again. Thanks for the great advice.
I routed a new 2.5mm2 wire from orange /yellow wire on the starter relay (front right behind below seat fairing) to spade connector on starter solenoid. I used an in line insulated solder connector after snipping the existing wire about 30mm below the relay to join the larger cable.
Didnt start straight away but then found my messing about had blown the 20amp fuse. Now starts on the button every time.

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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:00 am

Note how Peter-3d's 1100 GRiSO is better wired than the later 8V GRiSO

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It uses a feed from unswitched fuse C

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Instead of the switched fuse F2 and a second relay.

They both use the same wimpy wire from the relay to the solenoid though.
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:50 pm

Follow up startus question Smile
Hi Roy as you know i rewired my 1200 and all was well.
but it is not starting first press...
First press it does the clunk and wait. but starts on second press every time.

Any ideas
I have checked the wiring and the relays themselves - all OK
Turnover sounds a bit slow but it is the just same speed with a jump-lead direct from battery to starter.
The battery holds 12.1v easily but takes time to recover on the optimate so that may be a factor?
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kiwi dave
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:58 pm

Sounds like your battery is on its way out.

Try with a battery charger connected, or another battery in parallel with the existing one. If it starts first time, then it's probably the battery.
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:41 pm

I agree with Dave.
You could measure the battery Voltage while trying to start, a good battery should be able to maintain 10 Volts while its trying to turn over.
Don't discount bad ground where its connected behind the starter, in fact clean up all the battery connections and swipe some Vaseline on them.
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:54 am

Other weak spots: i have an additional earth to the frame and all earth points are clean vaselined and tight I serviced the starter and the commutator and brushes are fine - it all spins cleanly.

Battery checking: my battery comes up as good-average on a high-load battery tester.
Holds 13.1v after charging
and while starting it drops to 10.8v - rebounding to 13.1v when the engine catches

But it only holds 12.5v ish when the ignition is on
and the bike does start first time when a 4a charger is attached.

Overall I reckon the battery is getting old and possibly the solenoid too at 28,000 miles

it is this first time clunk & seconf press start that confuses me
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Evans
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:16 pm

Not being a sparky my solution may not be the best one but it does work on my GRiSO.

I replaced the starter circuit wire from the battery +ve to the starter relay and the earth wire from the frame to the battery -ve with heavy duty cable.

I also installed a relay from the battery to the trigger circuit of the the starter relay incorporating a 30 amp circuit breaker. I trigger that relay from the original starter wiring.

There are problems with the Ducati starting, the heavy duty wire and corrosion resistant grease are the solutions.

I always solder the connectors to the wires as crimped ones can let in moisture resulting in corrosion and resistance. This is certainly a problem in marine applications.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Chris W
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:30 pm

I see the grease but can't stop looking at Jimmy in the background!
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Evans
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:38 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:53 am

Evans wrote:
Not being a sparky my solution may not be the best one but it does work on my GRiSO.

I replaced the starter circuit wire from the battery +ve to the starter relay and the earth wire from the frame to the battery -ve with heavy duty cable.

I also installed a relay from the battery to the trigger circuit of the the starter relay incorporating a 30 amp circuit breaker. I trigger that relay from the original starter wiring.

There are problems with the Ducati starting, the heavy duty wire and corrosion resistant grease are the solutions.

I always solder the connectors to the wires as crimped ones can let in moisture resulting in corrosion and resistance. This is certainly a problem in marine applications.

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I think the ground wire is adequate but the connection to the gearbox is sometimes a bit corroded.

Do you mean a relay from the battery to the trigger terminal of the starter solenoid?

Your wires will not corrode if you dip them in Vaseline before crimping them, or even grease for that matter.
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Evans
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:54 am

Yes a relay to the trigger terminal activated by the starter button and associated circuit.

Initially I ran a circuit straight from the starter button to that relay but was informed that the ecu needs to sense when the starter circuit is active so I reconnected that circuit and used the wires that normally activate the trigger circuit of the starter relay to trigger the intermediate relay.

This provides a high current circuit directly from the battery to the starter relay. Whether this solution was over the top I don't know but works every time so far.

With Ducatis the main issue is skinny wires to the start motor and corrosion of the terminals.
I was going to use vaseline on my Cagiva (Ducati 900 motor) when I upgraded the starter wiring but someone on the blog said the corrosion block grease was better, no idea whether it's true but is was not expensive so why not.

I have been told by marine electricians that the downside of soldering is that it stops the cables from flexing and they are prone to break from vibration. I'm always careful to only solder the wire into the connector so that should not be a problem. Soldering does of course take longer than crimping but for the peace of mind knowing that I cannot get corrosion between the wire and the connector is the way I choose to do it.
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lcjohnny
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:12 pm

Hi Evans
- i used to solder all connections - it was how i was taught and i think it looks better
but i did a bit of research before starting my startus interruptus repair
and although there are strong arguments for soldering - i found stronger arguments for crimping.
As you say it seems that even a good soldered joint likely capillaries solder between then strands (wicking) reducing cable flexibility and maybe causing a stress point
whereas a good crimp joint (with enough pressure)  effectively bonds the metals almost like a cold weld.

However both sides seemed to stress the value of a pull test to see how well the wires had been bonded.
So i bought good quality crimps made the best joints i could on new
 9/0.30, 0.65mm², 5.75A - cable (OD 2.3mm)  and
28/0.30, 2.0mm², 17.5A - cable (OD 3.3mm)

and pull tested
1 soldered,
2 crimped
3 crimped then soldered
4 soldered then crimped

I am embarassed to say that the ugly pre-insulated crimp terminals were generally stronger and more consistent.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.].

Probably the fault lies with my sh1te soldering - but I have now gone to the 'dark  side' and am using those buttt ugly pre-nsulated crimps
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Kiwi_Roy
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:37 pm

I started my apprenticeship before crimp lugs, everything was soldered so we got quite good at it.
I wouldn't want to go back. One thing I do like to do is dip the wires in Vaseline if the joint is in a wet location, it discourages water from wicking into the wire and keeps the copper bright.
Some guys like to use tinned marine grade wire but plain copper lasts quite well if you grease it.
You can get lugs with heat shrink and glue to seal to the wire, I don't bother.
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Evans
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:23 pm

I think the trick with crimping is having a professional crimping tool to do the job right.
I've not priced them but I doubt that they're cheap.

I bought a set of those pre soldered shrink fit sleeves. Rubbish either the solder or the flux is useless.
They look soldered but pull apart.

I solder and heat shrink with double wall heat shrink tube, this does leave a hard spot in the wire that may fail if there's a lot of vibration or flexing but does give me a sound joint.

Lacking quality crimping tool and crimp sleeves it's the only option I think.
Any better ideas would be appreciated.
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beetle
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:37 pm


There's nothing wrong with crimp connections. Failure is typically due to poor quality crimp lugs or crimping tools. You can't scrimp on the crimp.








That was bad. I'll get my hat....



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Chris W
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:52 pm

as an electrician, I can say that compression terminals are an industry standard. If done correctly using the correct tool, you will get a durable, long lasting connection. personally, I would use vaseline as a last resort and opt for a product like Noalox or equivalent as they are specifically designed for this application

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Evans
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:50 pm

So what crimping tool and what crimps are the ones to look for ?
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PostSubject: Re: Startus Inturuptus Question   Startus Inturuptus Question - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:46 pm

THIS one would be an entry point Crimpers

Have been using these for years at work and home and haven't lost a connection yet.

It does depend on using the right sized wire for the colour lug you are using... This suits Utilux lugs and the RS-Pro ones, too.
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