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 if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?

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PostSubject: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:20 am

Hi. I was a fool. I had a beautiful red 1100 GRiSO back in 2015, but only for about 6 months as I had to sell it. Now, after years off 2 wheels, I'm saving up for another GRiSO.
I'm planning long term, as it will be another 10 months or so till I've got about £5k to spend. I'm sure that would blag me a very decent 1100, but would it be better in the long term (will definitely keep the next one until I can't ride anymore), to stretch to a later 8v, or SE? I'd be interested to know how much more you feel the 8v can offer, not just with the engine either. I can wait another 6 months to save up for one IF its worth it, but £7k will probably be my top budget.
So how much better is an 8v, especially the later SE? If you own one and you swapped it for a 4v what would you miss enough to justify the extra cost, or in fact, do some of you rate the 4v even better? I found the 1100 fantastic, but more power is always welcome, though not at the expense of overall power delivery. I'm not a fast rider, so maybe the later 8v might be lost on me.

Just curious at this stage. As I say, it's a way off yet, but interested to know opinions.

Cheers

Rene

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Dilliw
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:07 am

I have ridden both and don't see any advantage to the 1100 when compared to a rollered 8v. I would therefore buy the best available since either might be hard to find.

The 1100 was a one year bike here in the States while the 8v sold for 8-9. Post 2012 (rollered) 8vs can be had for around the same price. You will have a better chance of finding an 8v just due to numbers.

Good hunting!

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:12 am

Thanks George, good to get a comparison from you. I'm in the UK, and they are even more scarce here, so yes, I reckon my choices will be a bit limited. US bikes put up for sale, as seen on this forum, always seem to be in excellent condition - shame it costs so much to import one, otherwise that would be another option come the time.
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:50 pm

I had a 1200 4v Breva 1200 Sport before the 8v GRiSO.  The Breva fit me better and was a joy to ride. The handling was awesome.  Loved the 6 gallon tank.  However the 4v engine just did not make the power. The 8v 1200 engine makes more than 30 HP more than the 4v.  Be sure you purchase a 2013 or newer so you have the rollerized valve train.
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:03 pm

An 1100 makes about 73/4 RWHP, the 1200 96 RWHP. If mapped correctly a 1200 will make *About* 100 RWHP but significantly more torque throughout the rev range.

Cycle parts and frame are very similar between all Grisos, the most obvious difference being the change in front brakes on the 1200 to radial calipers. Both forks and shocks are sprung and valved dreadfully ex-factory but the Showas are a superb fork and eminently tunable, the rear shock is grossly undersprung and over damped and is best disposed of. Fitting a custom aftermarket shock also allows you to increase its length which improves turn in appreciably.

If you're going to spend money improving a GRiSO spend it on suspension and brakes. Getting much more outright power out of the engines is pretty difficult, in fact with the 1200 it's pretty much impossible, (Despite what some people with junk to sell will tell you.). Choose your aftermarket pipe, or stick with the stocker, map it, be happy.

Oh, and don't overlook the 850! They too are a lovely bike with an engine that is a quick-spinning gem.
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:30 pm

I have had both, put 50,000 miles on the 1100, traveling all over the western states and British Columbia and loved every kilometer. The 1100 was my all-time favorite bike until I stepped up to my current 1200SE. I never had any complaints at all with the 1100, but the 1200 is even more scrumptious in every way: better power delivery, quicker throttle response, better braking. It's more refined mechanically and even more smile-inducing.

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:36 am

Looks like the 1200 is the better bet then, thanks for the input guys. Interesting to hear that the engine is better all round, as I'd read that some think the 1110 had better midrange - can't remember where I read that though. Good point on the suspension Pete. I'll probably look at getting a Maxton shock, though I'm lucky to live near a top rate suspension expert so he will be able to sort both ends out for sure. Will have to budget that into the equation too.
Never seen an 850 over here in the UK, but interesting point, cheers. Maybe they weren't imported here?
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:05 am


The myth of the 1100 midrange comes from the 1200 8V's performance from 5500 RPM with the stock map. There's a bit of a rush from 5500 when it comes off closed loop. The 1100 has less of of a surge off closed loop.

In actuality, even with stock factory mapping, the 1200 8V has more torque across the rev range than the 1100.




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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:07 am

Thanks fir tge explanation beetle. I'm educating myself about the mapping too and your particular map - all very interesting. I've got plenty of time to get myself educated 😊, and will also add an engine 'tune' for want of a better word, to the list. I'm nowhere near getting a GRiSO and ivevalrwadu got s list of extras 😂😂.
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:25 am

Where abouts are you ,I’m Nottinghamshire and if you’re nr you can try my GRiSO 8v 2013 when roads get less salt on them.I got mine mapped at a local dyno shop and it’s transformed it,as standard there very rich upto 5000 rpm and lean above that,they evened it out and it drives smooth all the way through showing 100bhp with the factory termi exhaust silencer.I would put a picture up of the map but can’t seem to get pictures to load.

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:20 pm

Wow! Jon, that's incredibly generous of you, thanks. I'm in Shrewsbury, but when the weather, and more importantly covid, allows, I'd definitely be interested in coming to see your GRiSO, and chat about it. The ride would be awesome, but I've not been on a bike for about 4 years now, so to be honest I'd be pretty wary of riding someone else's pride and joy - but the offer is tempting :-). By the sound of it, you're chuffed with it now - bet it sounds incredible. I had Termi's on the 1100, and loved the balance of that deep rumble accentuating the V twin, but without being too crazy loud. Seems like some sort of mapping is almost obligatory with these, especially the 8v.
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:12 am

If I may add my experiences, having had m2 lemans for 20 yrs liked it but always lacked that bit of acceleration, bought  a 2004 v11 cafe sport thinking all would be solved only to find it developed major problems with  stuttering, had to have it remapped by great guy in cannock, which made it rideable.
Liked the looks but not quite right for me and performance was ok but not great. Thats when in desperation for the "bike for me" bought 2010 black GRiSO 1200 rollerised by specialist.
Loved the looks, and engine performance was all I could hope for. Sold it after 2 years after nearly dropping it on uneven pavement parking in IOM tt's and decided at 245kg bit too much for me, also lack of decent fairing was the point I sold it. I looked at fitting a 1100 sport fairing but too much work if the bikes too heavy for me. Then decided to go back to clipons and fairing and bought 1100 sport corsa in yellow 1998. This is perfect in every respect for me (still had to be remapped in cannock) but love it. For me I think it does everything better than the GRiSO except the 1200 rollerised engine which was brilliant. Seemed to have power at any speed any gear.
But hey ho, its all personal. Best of luck finding your GRiSO.


Last edited by Equinox on Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : tried to add photos)
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:52 am

Equinox - you've just made it even more complicated :-)
You know, I've always one the 1100 sport but I thought as it was a much older design, that it wouldn't compare to the GRiSO. Very interesting to hear your opinion, especially comparing to the GRiSO 8v. I guess you prefer the sportsbike riding position. I've had a Falco in the past and was expecting that to be cramped, but surprisingly no. The VFR was a perfect balance for me, and the 1100 GRiSO I also found to be a nice riding position. How radical do you find the sport? Maybe I should extend my search, though good ones of those are even harder to find!. What's with the carb version being better than the fuel injected version? Or is that a myth that can be sorted with good mapping?
2 different bikes for sure but I do like them both I must admit. Had a mk2 le mans back in the 80's too
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:36 am

Maybe my GRiSO 1200 wasnt set up right or maybe it was the weight but it didnt handle like the 1100 sport does, with its white power forks and shock. The 1100 sport riding position is a bit low but gets you out of most of the wind. Its not as powerful as the falco but I would imagine a lot easier to maintain.
The carb version i heard needs 2 handfuls of throttle whereas the FI is better when set up.
Will Creedon made a chip for them, but i had my original chip remapped, there is a very slight hesitation occasionally which is not there on the later models with injection.
I suppose the later models injection was more sophisticated and ironed out the flaws.
The injection on the 1100 sport is the one area where it suffers relative to the later models, but i dont really like the styling of the 1200 sport and breva, so I tried the V11 and GRiSO but here I am back with the 1100 sport and I think its the pinnacle of 2v head design with the carillo rods (less vibes)
After 4hr trip last year right clutch hand aching a bit so now have RAM clutch and its light as feather.
Anyway best of luck.
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:58 pm

The carbureted Sports all have a three dog gearbox and no Cush drive in the rear wheel and they destroy gears like it's going out of fashion because of the huge backlash between power off and power on.

Also, like all other Guzzis produced during one of the many "Oh fuck! We've run out of money and some of our suppliers have cut us off! Quick, throw together some motorbikes out of what is lying around!" periods quality control is at best sketchy. They also use a weird version of the Dodgyplex ignition system with a weird vacuum retard system incorporated to in it which means to keep it working properly you need to hook it up right. Likewise the ridiculous 'Ram Air' system that does nothing for performance also relies on pressurising the float bowls from the air box so if that is removed you have to start from scratch with the jetting of the PHM-40's.

Look, I love the Sport C's but they have a lot of weird, impossible to buy nowadays parts and a host of strange niggling little problems that will rear their heads. They are a true 'One Eyed Enthusiasts' machine and as a 'Daily Rider', especially a quarter of a century after they were built, they definitely are not. Most of the people I know who own them are involved in some form of engineering, that helps! Laughing
They are also miserably uncomfortable around town and have handling that can best be described as ponderous. I've several times thought of picking one up as an occasional rider on sunny afternoons but then I wake up to myself, give myself a slap and shelve the idea.

The Sport I's are essentially more of the same but with added weirdness thrown in. They use the incredibly primitive 16M computer and are a bear to set up properly. The engine is offset in the frame to fit a bigger rear tyre but at least you got a Cush drive in the rear wheel and a five dog, (From memory.) gearbox. They tend to be owned by people who have borderline personality disorders and probably keep jars of women's' ears under the bed. Avoid.

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:49 pm

I've got nothing to add!

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:07 pm

I like the way Pete explains things.

I was working on a new Sport in 95 that leaked oil at head gasket if the owner went above 80mph, it was under warranty. Ned's pulled it off(head) and found no gasket put on it at factory. Bike had 10K mi on it. Damn good machining eh?
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:57 pm

Pete, I don't have jars of women's ears under the bed, but I did have some motorcycle parts under it once, when I had no other storage facility 😂😂. Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate the information there. I'm guessing that's a vote for the latest v8 GRiSO then. 👍

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:42 am

Any of the CARC bikes is really a much better proposition. They are quite simply a modern-ish vehicle, the 1100 Sports really show their age and, as I said, many parts are hard to get.

As for which engine? There is a lot of old tosh talked about the 'Complexity' of the 8V, it's just that, tosh. As long as the motor is rollerised they are every bit as robust and reliable as the earlier pushrod motors. Don't overlook the pushrod models though. They too are very sweet motorbikes and once the common CARC bike issues are addressed, most of which are stupid stuff like lack of grease in frame and suspension bearings and poor maintenance.

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:39 pm

GuzziSteve wrote:
I like the way Pete explains things.

I was working on a new Sport in 95 that leaked oil at head gasket if the owner went above 80mph, it was under warranty. Ned's pulled it off(head) and found no gasket put on it at factory. Bike had 10K mi on it. Damn good machining eh?

That's genuinely remarkable
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:15 am

Ok - confessing my ignorance here - which models are the  "Sport C" and  "Sport I"?

it is not this model is it? I always fancied one of those... but didn't have the money whilst they were still young
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:30 am

are the training wheels a factory option or are they aftermarket? Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:12 am

lcjohnny wrote:
Ok - confessing my ignorance here - which models are the  "Sport C" and  "Sport I"?

it is not this model is it? I always fancied one of those... but didn't have the money whilst they were still young
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Nope. That is an early model 'Short Frame' V11 Sport. They came after the 1100 Sports. The 'C' denotes the earlier carbureted version, the 'I' denotes the fuel injected version. From memory the 'C's were made '95-96, the 'I's '97-98 but I might be wrong there. Along with the Centauro and Daytona models they are collectively known as 'Spineframes' for obvious reasons.

While the 1100 Sports, both versions, were five speed and basically took the old 'Tonti frame' engine and driveline, (Albeit with a reactive rear drive.) and put it in a new chassis the V11 Sport was a complete redesign with a shorter wheelbase, a four shaft, six speed gearbox and a completely new bevelbox design. The V11, whilst still flawed, is a far more *Complete* motorcycle whereas the earlier Sports really were a poorly thought out lash-up, albeit a very pretty one.

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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:13 pm

I bought the 1100 GRiSO from Renevator in 2016 though we haven't spoken since. I commuted on it for 7 months into central London. It suffered a cam follower failure which happened in the course of a single short ride. There used to be lots of independent guzzi workshops in London but now there's only 1 and he was too busy but the main Guzzi dealer in London was willing to fix it. The shop is a Piaggio scooter shop selling V7s and scooters. When I spoke to the head mechanic and said the follower was shot he said it probably wasn't and was more likely to be the rods and rocker carrier. I realised then he'd never taken a Guzzi apart but assumed they would manage a pushrod air-cooled engine. They had the bike for 2 months because they couldn't get the parts (cams were rare, but even gaskets were unobtainable to them - I offered to get some for them) and they broke rings getting the barrels back on (rings are rare too). When I got the bike back I rode 10 miles with bike feeling sick until there was the sound of the valve gear splintering. The shop took the bike apart again and told me that the push rods had punched a hole through the followers, that the followers were soft and that Piaggio were doing a global recall. But in discussing with them all they'd done in the rebuild the mechanic told me he'd been careful to smother the new camshaft in grease. My guess is that caused the lubrication to fail then the cams and the rest of it. The rebuild now included another camshaft, all the valve gear (not the carriers, of course ) both oil pumps and everything else from the crankcase except the crank etc. Of course getting the parts was a problem so after they'd keep the bike for 3 more months I asked them to buy it from me which to their credit they did.
During this lockdown I've finally got round to doing a top end overhaul of my Le Mans 1 in my garden (all parts easily available). The cam followers were in perfect unmarked condition after 42 years and are the identical items as in the GRiSO. The ironic thing is that I bought the 1100 GRiSO rather than the 1200 to avoid possible problems with the valve gear, so now I'm not so sure which is better.
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PostSubject: Re: if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better?   if you've ridden both, how is the 8v better? Icon_minitime1Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:26 pm

John, that sounds more like gross incompetence more that anything wrong with the bike or its internals. Though a cam follower failure would be most rare!

The 1100 GRiSO and Breva and the 1200 Norge and Sport all have the (almost) same engine and the things are bullet-proof, for the most part.
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