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 ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?

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Oz1200Guzzi
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ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:02 pm

Moto,

I was looking for a vector diagram of forces - failed to do so. Started sketching but Friday afternoon is upon me and I can hear a nice cold black beer calling me. So if get motivated and can unearth some of my more recent University books on maths, vectors and the like - this is highly unlikely as most of my old texts have been packed in readiness for moving house. This would engender data but!

I've been called worse Moto - especially late for lunch! Not offended in the slightest...

Tony, winding down for the weekend...

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rick pope
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:36 pm

Rent a small truck to haul the bike across the vast plains.....

I've hauled my GRiSO many thousands of miles in our ramblings across the US. Right now, it's resting about 8' from me, in the rear of our RV. I've found that by using a soft tie through the lower yoke on each side, then two straps per side, one pulling forward and the other rearward, neither need be very tight, thus preventing collapsing of the fork too far. I also put a pair of straps on the rear to keep the bike from shifting back there. If probably hauled the GRiSO 8k miles in the last year, and triple that since i got it in 2016.

As much as I enjoy the scenery on the plains, (only anther farmer would understand) I hate wearing out just the centers of my tires.

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moto
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:26 pm

Now that I'm more awake I see there is little to say to Pete's comment, except that his argument is correct.

Pete Roper wrote:
... why one would tow a bike in such a silly way? Does that bike have a belt drive? No. So why not just take the chain off and tow it on the rear wheel? The reason why most bikes would have to be towed without their rear wheel rotating is simply because the gearbox pinions spin on brinze bushings that are pressure fed. The engine has to be running for them to get lubrication. If you tow one of these with the rear wheel on the ground the gearbox will eventually seize.

With your GRiSO or any other Guzzi twin with the exception of the V7-II and possibly III which have an oil pump for this purpose driven off the input shaft the gearbox and bevelbox are fed entirely by splash. In the Nuovo Six Speed most of the main shaft bearings are 2RS sealed bearings that don't even need external lubrication!

Stick the front wheel in the chock and secure the tie downs and go. The only thing I'd be worried about would be the weight and security due to lateral forces.

I suppose the company says the bike must go in backwards because they think their potential customers are lazy and don't want to be removing chains or thinking about transmission bearings. Keeping the rear wheel off the ground also keeps the customer from having to defend his setup to the inevitable all-knowing kibitzer who might otherwise tell him he was ruining his transmission at the next rest stop.  

Pete Roper wrote:
... What would worry me far more if towing 'Front wheel down' as it were would be keeping the front wheel locked in such a way that it would track straight. If it isn't following the same track as the tow vehicle exactly it's going to exert high forces on steering head bearings, be murder on the tyre and try to twist out of the chock. It's a horrible idea.

This is a legitimate concern, but the videos don't really show any sign of misaligned front wheels. One thing that is relevant about the backwards orientation here is that the trail of the front tire is now reversed and negative. This means the dead-ahead orientation will no longer be re-obtained after a deflection by virtue of the trail, and the steering would flop over to the lock one way or the other if not held in place. I'm also concerned about the way the fork is secured by two casual-looking loops of strapping around the handlebar grips, one of which is the rotating throttle grip!

If I bought this thing I would probably run it with my GRiSO's rear wheel on the ground. I don't think the backwards orientation has anything to do with its main benefits. I'll explain my thoughts on this in a minute, or as soon as I can collect them.

Moto

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Bill Hagan
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:06 pm

rick pope wrote:
Rent a small truck to haul the bike across the vast plains.....

I've hauled my GRiSO many thousands of miles in our ramblings across the US.  Right now, it's resting about 8' from me, in the rear of our RV.  I've found that by using a soft tie through the lower yoke on each side, then two straps per side, one pulling forward and the other rearward, neither need be very tight, thus preventing collapsing of the fork too far.  I also put a pair of straps on the rear to keep the bike from shifting back there.  If probably hauled the GRiSO 8k miles in the last year, and triple that since i got it in 2016.

As much as I enjoy the scenery on the plains, (only anther farmer would understand) I hate wearing out just the centers of my tires.

As usual, being a liberal-arts guy (and not especially good even at that! Rolling Eyes ), I understand virtually none of the science of all of this.

Naturally, of course, that does not keep me from drawing conclusions and having opinions, no matter how ill-conceived or baseless. cheers

So, with that disclaimer out of the way, a comment about the gizmo Moto is considering.

You mention saving tire wear by "wasting" those on the flat and straight Great Plains.  No doubt you solve that by hauling in a pickup bed or a trailer.  

But, I thought that tires that "merely" roll without tractive or frictive forces brought about by acceleration or braking did not wear much if at all.  They might "age" out from dry rot or the like, but their tread depth, etc., not.

So, while I, for all sorts of reasons, might choose a trailer -- in my case, mostly because I have one! -- tire wear would not seem to be a reason to do that.  

Who'd thunk that a question such as this one about hauling a GRiSO would have had this long a shelf life?  Wink

Bill

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Street
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:03 pm

Chris W beat me to a couple of my initial thoughts, namely the fear of being rear-ended and that this device looks like it might be a very handy emergency recovery tool, but a long-distance hauler? Not so sure about that. I'd also be concerned about backing up. Since it might be difficult to see the bike behind you and because this is the equivilant of an extremely short-tongued trailer, it seems like it might have a tendancy to jack-knife and crunch the bike.

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moto
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:27 am

I'll try to explain my residual enthusiasm for this device in a few short points.

But first I should mention I have some experience towing motorcycles with a bracket my late father designed and made one night about 47 years ago when he found me and my girlfriend still in his house on the wrong side of the Rockies in mid-October after snow was closing the passes. (Oops.)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The holes level with the table top bolt to the car's trailer hitch tongue in place of a ball. The lower rod is a dummy axle for the Triumph 650 (1966 Thunderbird) that needed towing and the steel tube inserted in the hitch is a sleeve I later cut out of piece of pipe to accept the smaller-diameter axle of my T3. The adapter itself is only about 5 inches across.

The towing trips I have made with this hitch are: Idaho Falls to Omaha, one-way, Triumph 650 towed by a Mercury Monterrey, approx 1009 miles (Dad driving; my girlfriend and I rode the Triumph the rest of the way to Ithaca); Ithaca, NY to Idaho Falls, one-way, Triumph 650 towed by a Morris Minor 1000, approx 2130 miles; Madison, WI to Seattle, round trip, Guzzi T3 towed by a Subaru Outback, approx 3808 miles; all trips combined, about 7000 miles.

This a good place to mention that the performance of the 37 bhp Morris Minor was not very much affected by towing the Triumph, with top speeds above 60mph still attainable (sometimes). This arrangement has only a small effect on gas mileage.

I have also made long-distance motorcycle relocations by U-Haul truck and by carefully measuring and buying an SUV of the right size to encapsulate an '83 Yamaha Vision. I've done shorter trips with trailers, and I've ridden across the Great Plains on motorcycles under their own power more times than I prefer to remember.

Here is a photo from the outbound Seattle leg using Dad's bracket, I think near the Laramie Summit on I80 in Wyoming:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The Drawback of Steering-Head-Pivoting Hitches

By rigidly attaching the axle to the trailer hitch tongue, and not allowing it to pivot, Dad's bracket forces the bike to pivot on its own steering head when turns are made. This is how the great majority of motorcycle hitches work, though most leave the front wheel attached to the motorcycle and rigidly attach it to the hitch instead. It is also the great failing of such motorcycle hitches.

Looking carefully at the second photo (I wish I had a better one of the mounted hitch), consider what would happen if the motorcycle were to swing, say, 30 degrees to the left on its steering head axis. Two things are conceivable. The rear wheel could wind up suspended several inches in the air if the steering axis were not allowed to change its location at all. Or the wheel could wind up resting on the ground if the steering axis were allowed to dip down the appropriate amount, rotating on the front wheel axle fixed to the car tongue. The second is what happens in practice, of course, and all hitches with this basic geometry exhibit the same dipping of the steering head in turning the rig.

This is a terrible thing. First, you can't even see the headlight anymore when the steering head drops enough, and you especially can't see the rear of the bike at all. If you get the rear wheel of the motorcycle turning just a little bit more sharply than the towing vehicle when backing up you can seemingly instantly tuck the motorcycle under your rear bumper and run it over, faster than you can even remember to say "Jack Robinson!". My brother and I ginned up various countermeasures, including flags over the rear of the bike, and electric beepers tied to cable pull switches and to mercury switches, but nothing really worked except constant vigilance and worry. It is a pain in the ass and a real danger.

Now on to the promised short summaries of the MoTow's residual attractions, and a couple of remaining worries:


  1. Vertical-Pivot Hitch

    The MoTow is a rare, vertical-pivot hitch:

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


    The motorcycle with its steering head tied down should be as stiff as a board, and, if it is, all the pivoting occurs on the axis defined by the two big bolts in the photo. Clearly no dipping of that axis is required to rotate the bike in a turn: the axis can remain vertical no matter how sharp the turn. Backing the bike up is as simple and safe as backing a boat trailer.  Rolling Eyes  (Though I grant Street's point about the short tongue.) The rear end won't disappear from view when turning and the bike won't tuck under the car's bumper.

  2. Easy One-Person Mounting and Dismounting

    It's clear that one person, even I, could quickly attach and detach the motorcycle without help. There is an optional electric motor if one is too lazy or impatient to use a ratchet wrench (to raise the carrier bracket from ground level to bumper height by turning the bolt head on top of the main vertical post). Even better, the motorcycle is ready to go once it's off the hitch.

  3. Stealthy, Extemporaneous Side-Trips

    This thing makes it easy to leave an apparently undesirable and empty sedan at almost any gas station (with permission) and venture off on side trips to that mountain range off the starboard bow, say. There is no trailer to store separately and no need to leave anything at all that is not inside the trunk of the car. The Mountain West is essentially a vast ocean of widely-separated mountain ranges; this hitch makes prolonged trips consisting of more mountains, less ocean, more feasible.


    (Remaining, legitimate worries:)

  4. Rear-End Collisions

    I've lived in Seattle (absolutely stunning!), Los Angeles (wonderful climate!), and New York City (well, um, the light on the skyscrapers can be very nice in the afternoon). In all those places I would worry a lot about being hit from behind. But going into the Great Wide Open I'd be more worried about being found before I'm eaten by buzzards. Rear-ending is rarely an issue for my desired travel routes.

  5. Torsional Stability and Metal Fatigue

    Looking at some videos, especially this one, makes me worry about possible excess twisting of the car's receiver, and consequent metal fatigue:

    [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    The most difficult design issue for this type of hitch is torsional stability, I think. There are just not very many good anchor points on modern cars, so, in this case, the car's hitch and 2-inch receiver take the whole load. I think this is a reasonable solution. But since I would have to change my Class II hitch's receiver from 1 1/4 inch to 2 inches anyway, I would certainly have the welder add some additional brackets (braces, buttresses, flying buttresses??) to reinforce the receiver against rotation. Trailer hitches are designed to tow, not to restrain rotary motion.


That's it. Except this: To me, its also about esthetics in some poorly understood sense. Motorcycle travel should be minimalist, and motorcycle towing should be too. No trucks, no big trailers if I can help it. Heck, with the right towing vehicle, say a Morris Minor, a towing trip can become a towing adventure! But that's a different story.

Moto

P.S. On Bill's point about tire wear: I have not experienced much tire wear towing unladen bikes. Maybe Rick had in mind the effects when riding a bike fully laden?


Last edited by moto on Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
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SMTCapeCod
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ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:45 am

Minimalist Motorcycle Towing
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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bahamazoo
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:47 pm

the original photo of the MoTow showed it rear wheel up, so that the chain/belt/drive didn't need to be removed for reasons laid out earlier.
This arrangement seems to be the one raising the discussion. A misdirection, if you will....  What a Face

seems to me that Moto has hauled his T3 all over in its natural direction with, I'm guessing, no consequence to the drivetrain.
The MG box as Mr Roper has said, and as Moto has proven, doesn't appear to mind being spun from the 'other' end.

The MoTow has a pivot point (this looks to be the weak point to me, but I'm sure it is 'fit for purpose') which takes the turning task off the steering head.
Backing up with anything behind the vehicle always requires vigilance. Being rear ended will happen if its going to, trailer, bike, car, bus...

I am currently towing a 3 1/2tonne caravan around Ozstraya, via 2" hitch receiver...
I'm quite sure it is up to the task of a 250kg bike- lateral forces included.

I like it.

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rick pope
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:38 pm

Maybe Rick had in mind the effects when riding a bike fully laden?

Yes. As much as I enjoy looking at the various practices of the agricultural landscape, I despise wearing out only the middle of the treads. And keep in mind, any motorcycle I throw a leg over instantly becomes fully laden. Shocked

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moto
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:17 pm

bahamazoo wrote:

seems to me that Moto has hauled his T3 all over in its natural direction with, I'm guessing, no consequence to the drivetrain.
The MG box as Mr Roper has said, and as Moto has proven, doesn't appear to mind being spun from the 'other' end.

I forgot to say I took out the drive shaft at first on my trip from Madison to Seattle, but put it back in when I got to Idaho to take a dirt-road trip with my brother up to a mountain ghost town. (And later challenged him to an impromptu top speed contest where I calculated I hit 116 mph.) The rest of the way to Seattle and all the way back on the return I didn't bother to take out the drive shaft again. The transmission has been fine ever since.

Quote :

I am currently towing a 3 1/2tonne caravan around Ozstraya, via 2" hitch receiver...
I'm quite sure it is up to the task of a 250kg bike- lateral forces included.

This is reassuring. Thanks.

I wonder if fears of legal liability are involved in the manufacturer's stipulation that the motorcycle should be towed backwards.

EDIT: And one more thing, in case anyone is still interested: One reason I felt sure I could tow the T3 safely with the driveshaft in it was that the bike was not nose-up with the front wheel in a carrier. Instead, it was level, just like when it is ridden. It occurred to me that the nose-up posture would drain the oil away from the front of the gearbox, and possibly encourage it to leak out the rear seal. So one more thing to worry about, for the worrying types like me.
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Chris W
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:57 am

well Mr. Moto, after reading this, I would say you are the resident expert on these. and the sales pitch they have for the hitch is quite convincing.....

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OldMojo
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:13 am

Is there any concern running the tire backwards? All of mine are directional.
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moto
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:38 pm

OldMojo wrote:
Is there any concern running the tire backwards? All of mine are directional.

I think it should be okay because there are no strong rearward- or forward-directed forces acting on the tire, as would happen with braking or acceleration under normal use. So the tire shouldn't "know" which way it is traveling. Good question, though, and I can't say for sure.

Moto
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Street
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PostSubject: Re: ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100?   ANY advantage of a Cali 1400 over a GRiSO 1100? - Page 2 Icon_minitime1Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:42 pm

Pretty sure they're marked directional so that the tread pattern will do its job of channeling water away. Shouldn't make any difference when towing, especially with no rider's weight on board.
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